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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wish there was somewhere that boys could just be boys.

270 replies

Teapotqueen · 13/10/2011 21:15

My DS is just starting Beavers (a younger version of cubs) and it has dawned on me that today there is nowhere where a boy can just be a boy without having girls around to think about. Rainbows, Brownies and Guides are girls only. Everything else is mixed sexes, football, scouts, all school clubs. Why is it wrong in the modern world for boys to be with just boys. Just a thought.

OP posts:
tortilla · 13/10/2011 23:25

"Why can't we just have scouts with a choice of activities that suit our children? All I'd like is equality of opportunity with the guides."

Well then, protest to the Scout Association as your beef is with them. Wanting the Guide Association to go mixed just so it's 'fair' is a bit ridiculous as it still doesn't solve the issue.

grumplestilskin · 13/10/2011 23:26

a big problem the guides will have is the leaders attracted to it will be women, whereas scouts can draw their leaders from all of society. That means more people willing to get involved and a bigger skill mix. So the activities will be better in general.

Even if I had a girl who loved brownies, I don't think I'ld be tempted to volunteer in an organisation where all the adults are women. I already work in a female dominated environment I'ld rather not use my volunteer/spare time in female dominated organisations - NOT my idea of fun!. If I had a LO in cubs/scouts I'ld be happy to help though

cantspel · 13/10/2011 23:28

It is not just scouts, cubs and beavers but youth football also allows girls to play in the boys youth league upto 13.

lovecat · 13/10/2011 23:29

Guides must have changed a lot since I was a girl, then [gimmer]. In the late 70's we did most the things on the 'boy's' list posted above and were encouraged to get dirty, go out and about on adventures, run around like mad things... but then we didn't live in a society that overtly encouraged girls to think that pink n' pretty is the way that girls 'should' be.

If that's what brownies/guides is reduced to these days I can see why a lot of girls would rather go to cubs/scouts. Although I've just looked at the Guiding UK website and am mildly disappointed to see that you can no longer be a Pixie, Elf, Goblin or Sprite, it's all Fox, Badger, Squirrel and Hedgehog...

I don't think the presence of girls inhibits boys from being boys, to get back to the OP, but having seen DD's single sex school begin to admit boys, I can say from my experience that boys tend to dominate in a group environment simply because they're louder - and to some extent they 'expect' to be heard. So perhaps that's why Guiding remains a girls-only club, to give them their own space? Still a bit rubbish if the activities are becoming tamer, though.

DownbytheRiverside · 13/10/2011 23:30

'Wanting the Guide Association to go mixed just so it's 'fair' is a bit ridiculous as it still doesn't solve the issue'

Perhaps the guides being less sexist and more adventurous, taking good practice from the scouts would solve the problem.
Then you could have a breeding ground for confident and empowered young women ready to cope with the patriarchy instead of being skilled in baking Halloween cookies and singing campfire songs without a fire.

grumplestilskin · 13/10/2011 23:32

well my local brownies and guides as a kid were wetter than fish's wet bits! There may have been exeptions but the organisation in the 80s anyway was very very very twee.
that the reason people started fighting for mixed cubs/scouts, because girls like me didn't wanna be stuck in a hall doing sewing (which my local ones WERE like), and maybe also the organisation realised that they would get better quality leaders if they widened their net!

MillyR · 13/10/2011 23:34

I used to volunteer with the guides. We did go camping, climbing, have fires etc.

grumplestilskin · 13/10/2011 23:34

I mean if brownies/guides were in general as exciting and adventurous as some of were lucky enough to experience then noone would have rocked the cub/scout boat to try n clamber in with their daughters would they?

Whatmeworry · 13/10/2011 23:35

Wanting the Guide Association to go mixed just so it's 'fair' is a bit ridiculous as it still doesn't solve the issue

Or....'Wanting Boardrooms to go mixed just so it's 'fair' is a bit ridiculous as it still doesn't solve the issue'

Work both ways....

I agree with the OP, especially after reading a ludicrous post today about complaining about rugby coaches' language

Birdsgottafly · 13/10/2011 23:44

"It is not just scouts, cubs and beavers but youth football also allows girls to play in the boys youth league upto 13."

Football, when it started was mixed, then the sexist laws came in, just like the racist ones. Would you say the same about 'gays' or 'blacks' or is it only gender discrimination that you partly support (i agree with no single gender clubs, unless for religious reasons, btw).

Whatmeworry · 13/10/2011 23:50

If there are girls only things allowed, there should be boys only things allowed. Fair is fair. (Having DS's I am becoming increasingly concerned that boys are being neutered by society in so many ways)

cantspel · 13/10/2011 23:54

oh please how do you jump from wanting boys to be able have single sex football teams to racism and homophobia?

If anything sticking to single sex would improve women football, as it is girls league football struggles due to lack of teams and players as the few girls who do play stick in boys teams. The teams that have girl players do tend to be the lower league teams which struggle to hold onto boy players so they pad out the teams with girls. Top league boy teams tend to be all boy.
If you dont believe me go and check out The FA fulltime website.

libbyssister · 13/10/2011 23:55

You CAN still be Pixies, Elves, Gnomes etc in Brownies if you want to. The woodland creatures are just another option. Just as the climbing, cooking, camping, crate-stacking, cycling, canoeing and crafting are all options.... We're not twee at Brownies.

Birdsgottafly · 14/10/2011 00:00

"how do you jump from wanting boys to be able have single sex football teams to racism and homophobia";
because all these single gender rules were created alongside them. The segregation shouldn't have happened, or rather been set in law/guidelines, to start with.

cantspel · 14/10/2011 00:14

Football is a contact sport and boys and girls are different especially post puberty.
You put boys in the postion they cant play properly as they dont want to end up
pushing into breasts or touching a girl in a manner that has been drummed into them since infancy that is inappropriate.
Little kids is fine to play mixed sex as they dont have that problem but post puberty it is unfair on the boys.

minimisschief · 14/10/2011 00:24

i agree with the op

if there are all girl groups there should be all boy groups.

it has nothing to do with girls ruining anything some people on hereare real touchy.

Morloth · 14/10/2011 00:31

I don't think boys need to be separate from girls and neither to I think it is appropriate that there are 'girls only' groups.

Either it is OK to have only boys and only girls, or all groups should be mixed.

I am a bit torn in contact sports on one hand most boys tend to be bigger and stronger and faster than most girls (with obvious exceptions), but then I think the girls who are as big and fast and strong should be able to play against similar opponents. thinking of Rugby as women go I am pretty tough, I lift weights and run and am strong and tall, but DH who plays and who doesn't work out as much as me could easily hurt me in a scrub/tackle so the game would be quite different if I were to insist on playing.

EcoLady · 14/10/2011 00:42

Single sex or mixed, Scout and Guide units are only as good as their Leaders. Anyone who is complaining about the activities offered should volunteer themselves.

My DD's former Brownie pack are fundraising to finance a weekend of climbing, abseiling, raft building & kayaking. Her Guides are planning their Winter Camp - the first of 4 each year, plus a trip to the USA in 2012.

Meanwhile DS's Beavers seem to play dodgeball every week, unless the parents offer extra. I would help out there more (I do a badge each term with them), but I'm already leading the aforementioned Brownies!

PetisaPumpkinHead · 14/10/2011 01:46

Brownies/Guides are dying a death in my town as all the girls want to be in the Cubs/Beavers. Brownies was v dull here I'm afraid and totally out of touch with what girls want to do nowadays. Cubs and beavers appeal more to CHILDREN generally as it's more fun (in this town - the poster above's Brownies sounds fab).

cumbria81 · 14/10/2011 06:07

I lead a Brownie pack. I have no children so was amazed at the noise and energy the girls have. I had forgotten. The Brownies are so energetic, they tear around from the moment they arrive to the moment they leave; the like running games, sports, competition and physical challenges. Yes we do craft activities but nothing particularly "girly" or twee. I think you are doing girls a disservice in suggesting that they hold your boy back.

joshandjamie · 14/10/2011 06:39

I haven't read all 9 pages of this thread - but my gut reaction to the OP is: I get where you're coming from. But for me it comes down to creating time for them to play with other boys, rather than it being at a club setting.

I have two boys and they love nothing more than to yell and yell and yell and pretend to kill someone and be rough and play fight and charge about like lunatics where someone will invariably get hurt. When there are girls present they have to curb this behaviour because when two boys take chunks out of each other, it's 'normal boy play' but when a boy takes chunks out of a girl, he's 'being too rough'.

I've noticed it when we have friends over to play. When there are girls present, the boys seem more aggressive because a) girls automatically become the 'baddies' in their games and are therefore targets and b) the girls try to make up the rules to their games which winds them up even more. Whenever there are girls present, I end up having to tell my guys off being too boisterous whereas if there're just boys around, while I have to warn them to calm down occasionally, they tend to just get on with it. The only time this is not true is if the girls are older/bigger than them and they are quite rough/tough girls. If the girls in question are remotely 'girly' it all ends in tears.

Boys get to learn social skills and how to be around girls just about everywhere, but at home with their 'boy' friends is where they can unwind and just be the little yelling creatures they long to be.

seeker · 14/10/2011 07:03

I'm interested that nobody has addressed my point about some girls not being allowed to be guides or brownies at all if they were mixed sex. Surely it's better that all girls have the opportunity to join something than boys have the opportunity tonjoin everything?

AyeScream · 14/10/2011 07:43

Can someone expand a bit on this state of "boy" that lots of you want male children to have a chance to experience, please? I'm at a bit of a loss, though loads of other posters seem to understand.

Oakmaiden · 14/10/2011 08:06

It is interesting though - the village I live in has full Beavers and Cubs packs (don't know about Scouts), and the only girl who goes is my daughter, and she is not a "member" but only goes along when I am helping out (my son is a Beaver). The Rainbows and Brownies packs (which I lead) also are full and have waiting lists.

Obviously something is working well here....

joshandjamie · 14/10/2011 08:08

Ayescream - In my mind, the 'state of boy' means letting little boys be what they want to be i.e. pretty basic creatures that don't have to worry about niceties and manners and consideration. They like to yell a lot. They like toilet humour. They like to pretend to shoot things. They want to be able to get dirty/make a mess. They want to be able to bounce on things they shouldn't and climb things that are dangerous. They want to be able to compete against each other and not feel they have to give someone a chance. They want to be just a little bit primitive.

But I think they know that they can't behave like that all the time and quite frankly, appreciate the intervention of society/parents/girls so that they can also be quiet, gentle, loving, considerate.

But if they don't get the chance to do the 'boy' bit, they get frustrated.

(Incidentally, I've found having boys has given me a huge insight into why men are like they are)