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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To wish there was somewhere that boys could just be boys.

270 replies

Teapotqueen · 13/10/2011 21:15

My DS is just starting Beavers (a younger version of cubs) and it has dawned on me that today there is nowhere where a boy can just be a boy without having girls around to think about. Rainbows, Brownies and Guides are girls only. Everything else is mixed sexes, football, scouts, all school clubs. Why is it wrong in the modern world for boys to be with just boys. Just a thought.

OP posts:

OddBoots · 13/10/2011 22:46

The Scouting Association is mixed now, that's not going to change however much some people think it is a shame.

However, I don't think there is any law that says all children's/youth groups have to be mixed so there is absolutely nothing stopping people from setting up a new group just for boys if they wished.

TimeWasting · 13/10/2011 22:46

Absolutely, but these groups aren't run by innocent children.

libbyssister · 13/10/2011 22:46

And we don't dance round a fecking toadstool any more! That was the 1950s FFS!

seeker · 13/10/2011 22:48

"And for girls only organisations to be kept that way because culturally, some groups wouldn't allow their girls to go if boys were going to be present - well, that's making some awful assumptions about the attitudes and behaviour of boys."

No it doesn't. It's simply accepting the reality of some girl's lives, and making sure that they aren't denied opportunities simply because of their backgrounds.

pointydog · 13/10/2011 22:49

The nub of the matter is that boys would never join an all-girl group, if allowed to. But many girls would be keen to join an all-boy group.

And I think that's because boys and their activities are seen as cool whereas girls and their activities are seen as wet. There are deep rooted attitudes in children and adults that are hard to change.

fruitybread · 13/10/2011 22:51

What do you mean, seeker? Why would you not want your daughter to be in a group or activity that involved boys?

DownbytheRiverside · 13/10/2011 22:51

'And we don't dance round a fecking toadstool any more! That was the 1950s FFS!'

Why is there a thread about guiding that keeps popping up and mentions optional dancing around the toadstool then? Or is it really about psychedelic drug-taking?

TimeWasting · 13/10/2011 22:51

Pointy, I think that's the most important issue here.

Nevertooearlyforcake · 13/10/2011 22:51

Pointydog I completely agree

pigletmania · 13/10/2011 22:51

I totally agree. There is nothing wrong with boys wanting to be in a group thats exclusively boys, and girls girls groups. I think that the girls join the cubs/scouts as its a bit more adventurous than Guides, and take more risks. I think the Brownies and Guides should take note. I remember jumping over wooden Toadstools in Brownies, and singing camp songs (not infront of a campfire)

pigletmania · 13/10/2011 22:52

ooops I just mentioned the dreaded jumping over toadstools, that was in the 80's btw not 1950's.

ComeIntoTheGardenMaud · 13/10/2011 22:53

No it doesn't. It's simply accepting the reality of some girl's lives, and making sure that they aren't denied opportunities simply because of their backgrounds.

Exactly, Seeker. It's because some parents won't allow their daughters to join any group that has boys in it. It's not about the boys themselves, it's about their being there.

Libbyssister - The Brownies insist we use the toadstool once a term on Promise night because they think it's retro!

fruitybread · 13/10/2011 22:54

Actually - I remember, Libby Purves has said all this already, and much better.

I do not believe we raise a better and more enlightened generation of men, and transform society for the better, by laying the sins of the fathers at the doors of small boys. We do live in a patriarchal society. That must change. That's not the way to do it.

pointydog · 13/10/2011 22:56

Nothing to do with scouts being more adventurous. It is perhaps because there is a perception that boys and their acticvities are more adventurous and daring and bold and fun and girls' activities are wet.

ComeIntoTheGardenMaud · 13/10/2011 22:57

Why is there a thread about guiding that keeps popping up and mentions optional dancing around the toadstool then?

Because it's a joke, DBTR, precisely most Brownie units have a toadstool that is dusted off two or three times a year and spends the rest of its time in the cupboard. I doubt there are very many Brownie leaders now who even know how to do the toadstool dance. I certainly don't.

EBDteacher · 13/10/2011 22:57

Group settings for young children tend to be run by women.

There is an agreement in primary eductaion that the curriculum has been recently geared towards girls because the (predominantly female) practitioners have subconciously planned it in a way that appealed to them.

This is one of a variety of (complex) reasons that girls are currently performing better in education that boys.

I want my DS to go to a boys prep school where the curriculum will mediated through wheels and machines and dragons and where running off steam will be facilitated as regularly as necessary.

Some girls might benefit from this focus too. On the other hand lot of girls (and some boys) like to work hard at colouring beautiful pictures and make puppets and write stories about faeries. I have no problem with that either- but we have to get away from this one sock fits all nonsense.

DownbytheRiverside · 13/10/2011 22:57

DD certainly found her guides group wet, but that was entirely due to the individuals running it and not a reflection of the movement as a whole I am certain.

Still wondering about the toadstools.

startail · 13/10/2011 22:58

A bit of me isn't sure I like girls gatecrashing Scouts, I wouldn't have wanted boys at the Brownie group I ran.
DD2 has just joined Scouts with her best mate (who, having a big brother, was a Beaver)
Unfortunately, DD1s Guide company were a bit dull (she stuck with it to be with friends that don't go to her school), but DD2 didn't want to join.
So far the Scouts do seem to do more and not sit about trying to plan their own activities like the Guides.
I'm sure the idea of the girls playing a part in organising what they do looked OK on paper, but in practice it simply didn't work. They didn't want to sit down and plan, they wanted to race about and be little kids (especially the Y7s who'd had enough of being grown up at school)

Peachy · 13/10/2011 22:59

What about st johns cadets? Are they still separate or not?

I have four nboys and it is fine; they mix at school, they spend the after school time trying to escape someone's pesky little sister, all the things that 10 year olds do as a matter of course.
And at Scouts he has a few girls but plays with the boys. What's the problem?

DownbytheRiverside · 13/10/2011 22:59

We've just done mass puppet-making in Y6 with sewing and such. Didn't notice any gender bias, more to do with level of cack-handedness than chromosomes as to the level of enthusiasm and confidence.

Peachy · 13/10/2011 23:00

startrail did they stop that then? I had a rainbow pack under that plan it yourself thing and it was a nightmare. five year old girls did not care

TimeWasting · 13/10/2011 23:00

A dancing class is a dancing class, football is football.
Anyone who wants to do those activities can and should feel free to go.
As far as I can tell, Guides etc. existed purely as a girly version of Scouts.
If Scouts now operates so that anyone can do scouting, then Guides is redundant if not as a female-only space.
If we don't need that then we don't need Guides.
Boys joining Guides would be tit-for-tat, not a real strike for equality at all.

EBDteacher · 13/10/2011 23:01

Sorry- that sounds like I've hijacked the tread to be an education issue. Not intended- meant to refer to the planning of any group setting for children.

teacherwith2kids · 13/10/2011 23:01

"And I think that's because boys and their activities are seen as cool whereas girls and their activities are seen as wet."

I'm not sure that I agree with that.

Every child has a mix of interests, of abilities, of aptitudes, of characteristics. DD, for all her pink and ballet twirliness, has a strong streak of tomboy wildness - she has sought out an activity that matches that part of her, and that activity happens to be Cubs. Not because it is cool. She doesn't e.g. play football, because she's not a big fan of team sport.

Equally, DS, for all his macho football posing, loves jazz. He has found a jazz band at his level, which happens to be mainly female. Couldn't bother him less - he is doing something he enjoys. He would not perceive it as cool or wet, it is just something he likes. He doesn't dance, because he has 2 left feet and is utterly ungraceful.

I have no problem with Guiding being all-female BUT it doesn't have to be so .... feeble. There is no earthly reason why they can't do all the camping, outdoors, risk-taking stuff that the Scouts do and which were the absolute foundation of Guiding (girls turnikng up at Scout jamborees wanting to join in). You can be all-female but still have a much less tame portfolio of activities.

ComeIntoTheGardenMaud · 13/10/2011 23:01

Like I said, DBTR, the reference to toadstools in the thread title was meant as a joke.

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