To wish there was somewhere that boys could just be boys.

[Teapotqueen]

My DS is just starting Beavers (a younger version of cubs) and it has dawned on me that today there is nowhere where a boy can just be a boy without having girls around to think about. Rainbows, Brownies and Guides are girls only. Everything else is mixed sexes, football, scouts, all school clubs. Why is it wrong in the modern world for boys to be with just boys. Just a thought.

Don't worry, I'm very familiar with the old 'it's not a level playing field so 'equal' treatment doesn't mean 'the same', in terms of gender separated groups -

But if we are looking at patriarchal society and the exercise of power, it's common bloody sense to point out there's a difference between a six year old boy and a sexist old CEO keeping his old boy's network closed.

Add to that some (mixed and controversial) stuff about little girls being more verbally competent and socially adept than little boys, and really, it just becomes ridiculous to keep talking about 'all male institutions' without taking into account that they are CHILDREN.

Well, quite, MillyR. I'm sure any latter-day Baden-Powell who wanted to start a new organisation for boys could do it.

Exoticfruits, the Scouts and Guides are multicultural organisations. If you want your children to belong to an organisation that focuses on a single culture, then you have to join such an organisation.

From the descriptions here, it sounds like beavers would really appeal to my DD. Perhaps it will develop more as she gets older but my DD1 gets completely confused if she experiences falling out/flouncing/BBF - though I have seen as many boys do this as girls at her age

A very important reason that Brownies and Guides remain girl only is that there girls both in this country and in others who area only allowed to join because it's girls only. I think I would rather the occasional boy wasn't allowed to join Brownies and had to be a Cub than a girl wasn't allowed to join either.

DS does boys-only activities (team sport) and mixed activities (Scouts, music).

DD does girls-only activities (dance) and mixed activities (Cubs, music).

They are at a mixed school. DS essentially ignores all the girls, DD tolerates the boys. At home or on holiday we do a mixture of things without any thought as to whether they are traditionally male or female - canoeing, maths, going to the theatre, playing with lego, gardening, cooking, reading, playing board games, trampolining, making animated films, hiking, body-boarding, visiting castles.

Neither child regards any part of life or any activity as being 'closed' to them by virtue of their gender. They know that some of the things that they enjoy doing are done mostly by girls, or mostly by boys, but they do not choose those activities because of that, they choose them because they like them and enjoy them and are good at them.

I find the whole discussion quite odd, actually.

And I have absolutely no problems with boys in brownies, guides etc. Am sure at some long she'll are why are there no boys

At some point

Does anyone care if a boy isn't allowed to join if there are girls?

teacher, do you think that your children might be influenced in their choice of what they enjoy because they perceive, without being aware of it necessarily, that some activities are more associated with girls (dance) and some are more associated with boys...?

You don't have to be consciously organising or pushing traditionally gender biased activities as a parent for your children to be aware through peer pressure, or through representation in stories/media, for example, that some things are likely to be more acceptable (therefore enjoyable) than others....

I completely understand what you are saying OP and I agree with you.

exotic, what do you mean? Because they got sexist dad?

exoticfruits - yes, I care that a boy might be excluded from a group because it was 'all girls'. And that if they could see the reverse wasn't true - that an all boys group would be forced to take girls - I think that would be sending them a very complicated message about what is fair.

"Does anyone care if a boy isn't allowed to join if there are girls?"

Yes, I would care. Has it happened?

Fruity, I obviously cannot shield my children from outside influences and of course these may affect the directions that they have chosen.

I suppose what I meant was that neither of my children believe that they should have a 'their gender only' activity to 'be themselves' - DD is still a girl when she is at Cubs. DS is still a boy when he is playing in his (girl dominated) jazz band.

I have no idea! I suspect they wouldn't go to Guides anyway. I just dislike double standards.

Girls have been allowed into Scouting for a longer time than I thought, though it has been quite recent that all groups HAVE to allow girls to join:

• 1976: girls allowed to join venture scouts, age range 15 to 20, but not younger groups
• 1990: girls may join any age range in some UK scout groups - but not all groups sign up *2007: in its centenary year, the Scout Association decrees that girls may join any UK scout group

Oh - there is of course 1 boys-only activity, carefully guarded - being a cathedral chorister. Purity of tone, or something as far as I can remember. Huge uproar every time a cathedral is forced to admit girls because they can't find enough boys...

I've just had a quick look at the Guides and Scout websites and Scouts looks far better.
I don't think the boys are missing out on anything.

Apart from this alleged necessary boy-time.

Surely there are still some men only golf clubs?

Not sure it's q double standard, exactly. For example, if guides were mixed gender, lots of Muslim girls, and girls from some more "extreme" Christian sects wouldn't be able to join, and would therefore miss out on all the benefits of the Guiding movement. It would be possible to argue that these girls ned it more than many. Would you rather they were excluded completely, or a hypothetical boy have one less choice of groups to join?

Is there some reason why people who object so much to girls in the Scouts don't send their sons to the Boys Brigade instead? I have just looked up my local area on their postcode finder and they have five groups in my local area so I assume they are fairly widespread.

Do you all think that girl time isn't necessary either?
I mean, I've never been on an all girls' night out, but many of my friends seem to love spending time with each other in a single-sex environment for a few hours.