AIBU to feel disappointed that religious songs and stories are being introduced to this toddler group?

[neolara]

OK. I'll come clean and admit it's a toddler group that is run in a church, headed up by the vicar's wife and staffed by volunteers from the church community. It is a completely fantastic toddler group. It's wildly popular, very friendly, lovely, lovely volunteers who make cups of tea and hand out biscuits and chat to all the mums. Really, IMO you couldn't ask for anything more from a toddler group. However, today they sang a couple of religious songs in amongst twinkle twinkle and started telling stories about Jesus. This is a new development and looks like a clear change of policy.

Up until today this toddler group was not obviously a "christian group" with no mention of Jesus or God, although families attending the group were invited along to child services and there was always information about the many and various activities the church organizes. I'm pretty convinced that the vast majority of families who go to the group are not attached to the church - they are just a random cross section of the people in our city. They go because it's a great group.

Now obviously, it is a church group, run by Christians and they are perfectly entitled to run it in whatever way they want. The running of the group has recently been taken over by someone new. She is extremely nice and seems very welcoming.

But as a non-believer, I felt very uncomfortable when the singing and stories are happening. I think this is partly because I just think the whole thing is nonsense (sorry to those who do believe, but I just do), partly because I see it as "indoctrinating" (I know this is only because I don't believe - if I agreed with the views I wouldn't see it in this way) and also because it makes me feel that if I don't believe then maybe I shouldn't be attending. I think that as the kids are so young, realistically they won't understand the stories or songs, so the fact that they are now happening is basically a way of signalling to the parents that this is now a religious group. Obviously, I can choose not to attend and this is something I may end up doing. All of which makes me sad because it has been such a fantastic, inclusive, toddler group in the past. I've been going to it for the past 7 years and it's been pretty great for all of that time.

Do you think it is worth mentioning to the (lovely) woman who runs the group the effect of introducing the religious element to the group? (I'd obviously leave out the bit about thinking Jesus is nonsense!) I wonder if she's even aware that by including religious songs / stories it can make it seem actively unwelcoming to those of other / or no faiths. Of course, this may be the effect that they are trying to achieve, which is obviously OK, (if sad for me!)

Widow - that's my point - sometimes we do thugs based on religion (or did you mean purely the custom element? In which case you're technically right; but is splitting hairs to try and say to a three year old oh this bit's actually based on pagan tradition; and this bit's just custom; oh and this bit, wend believe but we're not actually going to tell you about the Virgin Birth aspect until you're much, much older, and anyway, it's terribly controversial and the major Christian streams and actually even your granny don't really agree on that bit)

Sorry full of typos...thugs = things, for starters...

Anyway, basically, it's all about what's going to be fun for the toddlers, and certainly not about indoctrination.

Exactly OP, overthinking, get a grip, and I hope your new volunteer loosens up a bit - I doubt you're the only one disconcerted.

sometimes we do thugs based on religion
nah, the thuggee were more of a murderous cult than a religion. I wouldn't put the toddler group quite in that category yet (sorry, a particularly wonderful typo!)

sarraburd - I guess the lent thing is something beyond a toddler's grasp, but I don't know in a year or two I'd tell my daughter how the custom with the pancakes came about.

In the same way as I'd explain why there's Matzo at Pessach, or why there's an Easter egg hunt.

One of the traditions where I'm from is the St Martin's parade with lanterns. Of course I'll tell my children about it - and where it stems from. But I will tell it as the folk tale I believe it is, and not that it was really Jesus dressing up as a beggar who Martin gave his coat to.

Of course I will tell my children about how Christians believe that God's son was born to a virgin and that's why they celebrate Christmas, and about how they believe he died and was resurrected. In the same way as I will tell them about the Minotaur and other Greek and Roman myths, etc.

I believe it is interesting to learn where crossover points in different mythologies are, which are most obvious on the timings of the main festivals.

But saying "hey, it's whatever festival, and that's what they usually do, let's try it out and see if it is fun" is different to singing "He's got the whole world in his hand" every week.

So I guess, I'm not disagreeing with you, or what you say - I actually only wanted to confirm whether I remembered that bit about shrove tuesday right or whether I had made it up in my head.

Neolara - although I don't think you should necessarily leave the group, I don't think you should walk away from this thread feeling like you should GET A GRIP, or that YABU.

The Vicars wife and her committee have treated the people who come to the group quite shoddily. As many have said its s her time, church property etc.. and they can treat people anyway they like etc...but what they haven't done here is treat you as adults and with respect. I don't think it's overthinking to say this leaves a bad taste.
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They made a policy decision to change the group from non-religious to religious content. They could have (A)asked people if that is what they wanted, (B) given them a choice by having a separate session of Christian stories and singing or (C) been honest and said 'we are closing the old group and opening another called 'Tots of Praise', you are all welcometoy come.

They didn't do any of those things. However nice and polite they are they've not treated you with basic respect, they put you on the spot and expected you to get a grip.

If you can find a nice, polite way to ask about the policy change and say how you feel I would do it now, otherwise you've missed the chance.

Um ... I'd really doubt it was a 'policy decision'. Just a new leader who'd probably always sung those songs in some previous group and didn't even think about it.

I think Himalaya's point is a good one. With all this 'big society' stuff I think it is worth remembering that just because somebody volunteers their time it doesn't mean they can do whatever that want without reference to what other people want.

To take such an attitude moves away from genuine volunteering into some sort of do-gooder stereotype who will insist that people take the help on offer and be grateful for it.

I really don't think that is what the OP's group is like, from what she has described.

Grimma - maybe not, but it's worth talking to them about it to see. If it's not a policy decision then maybe the Vicars wife would have a word with the new volunteer and say 'it's not that kind of group'.

My experience of toddler groups is that they seem to have made a decision whether to be religious or not, or only twice a year etc...

Oh yes, either way def talk about it before (or hopefully, instead of) flouncing!

YANBU in the least. While I was lucky enough (in toddler group days) to live in an area with a choice of toddler groups, I avoided a couple of them after one or two visits because I didn't want a faceful of superstitious bullshit and nor did I want it for DS. We live in a very multicultural area, and, church or not, if a playgroup is being funded in any way by the local council and recommended to new parents by the local health centre, it needs not to be alienating people by peddling one brand of mythology.

I don't know where you are, OP, but could the recent bout of Jeeezus-jonesing be a way to get all the 'immigrants' to go elsewhere?

That's a depressing thought, SGB. Hope you're wrong ...

I think it is worth remembering that CofE churches are often made up of a disparate group of people, and the new leader of this group may be a bit more evangelical than most of the congregation. The vicar's wife is no doubt trying to accommodate all these different people without offending anyone, including this new volunteer.

The internal church goings on may very well resolve this issue over time, without the OP having to have any involvement in it. It seems very unlikely that the entire church group has come to some sudden decision to make a toddler group go religious after seven years of it just being a community event.

Grimma - equally thrilled with serendipitous typo - only wish my actual typed attempts at humour were as effective...

Widow - agreed - my 6 year old finds the comparative mythology aspects fascinating, as did I at her age (and still do. I don't agree that Blind Faith is what it's about).

Himalya - overthinking is not overstating; it really may well just be the volunteer doing what she's done before rather than active decision - our priest has too many mercy visits to worry about what we're up to; just trusts us to be good and worthy enough people to generally get on with it (MillyR - and OP - yes will probably resolve in due course)

I do sometimes find this type of thread a bit depressing WRT how fucking narrow and whitebread some people are. An awful lot seem to think that a community toddler group divides simply into two - those who think 'A bit of christianity won't hurt' and those who are Just Showing Off by being rationalists. What about the Jews, Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims etc who might also live in the area and want to attend the local toddler group?

They're forced to start their own ... and then everybody complains about sectarianism/segregation

I used to run a toddler group in church many years ago, which still thrives today.

It is a church mission/outreach group and has the same purpose as everything else we do in church - to reach out with the gospel message and transform lives. Whether and how people respond to this is God's business. We are just being faithful.

These groups are not run by one person - there is a small army of people to run a toddler group. Committee members come and go. There may have been no singing for a while because the person who was the natural to lead this activity moved on and there was no one with the confidence to step into her shoes. Perhaps someone new is on the scene who is happy to reinstate this slot. I know that happened in my watch.

In our group, we would have committee meetings once a term where we would plan a programme (eg which crafts on which week, and a rota for which toys went out when, as well as a staff rota). We also had an annual AGM which was open to everyone. Anybody in the group was welcome to join the committee, or to sign up with jobs rota, and it really did not matter where they were faith-wise.

If the OP feels strongly about how the group is run she should step up to the plate and get involved. IME these groups always welcome new leaders and helpers and are not at all cliquey.

It is hard work running a toddler group which is why they are mostly run by churches.

SGB - alot of places outside of big cities are amazingly White - and these places also tend to be the ones with Tory Councils who don't put much into public services and leave things like toddler groups to churches. Multicultural areas tend to be those with more one o-clock clubs, sure start etc...

I agree though the 'don't ask, don't tell' approach to whether toddler groups are religious or not does no one any favours. I have Muslim friends who assumed that all church hall groups were religious. Convincing them otherwise is quite hard work (....and involves them assuring their parents, parents in law that it's all ok). While i have no problem Christian parents group worshipping together, someone just springing the Jesus songs one day at an otherwise 'open community' group is not on, for the reasons you give.

People who say 'it's in a church, what do go expect?' are being a bit whitebread in not seeing this.

I wonder why churches can't just put 'Christian stories and worship' etc on their Toddler group posters if that is the case - is it because they know much fewer people (even cultural Christians) would go???

solidgoldbrass - no doubt some of the people on the thread would say they should do their own groups in their synagogues, temples, mosques if they don't want to do Christian stuff - and that's where I find faith becoming something very negative. Thankfully not everyone thinks like that.

Well I don't know where the OP is but our toddler group is in a small city and it's enormously international. Contrary to what SGB says, the international attendees are far more likely to be curious about the church, the building, what happens there etc than the Brits. There are lots from China, S Korea, Japan and increasingly S America too and particularly the east asians often haven't had any contact with Christians at all and certainly not western Christian architecture etc. Having some Christian content is actually partly because they like getting some idea of the religious heritage of the culture they're staying in. Oh, and several each year who leave to go home tell us that toddler group was the first time that British people were friendly to them.

Re all the comments about consulting the group - it may not have been possible, OP's first description says the group is wildly popular so it may not be a small, roughly consistent bunch of people but quite a large and slightly transient group. For starters, if there has been a change of policy I'm guessing it probably started at the beginning of term so if OP hasn't been till now it suggests that the membership isn't necessarily particularly defined.

WidowWadman I wouldn't say that at all. But at the same time I wouldn't attend an open to all toddler group held in a synagogue and say "shit really, I can't eat my bacon sarnie in here?" And if they happened to sing a Jewish song at the end, I wouldn't fall over with shock. I'd be half expecting it. It's common sense.

Exactly Gwendoline.

YANBU to be disappointed, but in the end it's their group to run however they want. I go to a church group where there is a load of mad kids' literature on a bookcase in the room BUT in the group itself they only read/sing 'normal' songs and stories. If they did start religious songs I wouldn't go but nor would I make a fuss about it.

It's also worth bearing in mind that not all Christianity is sweet, traditional and harmless. There are plenty of bucketheaded nutters who call themselves Christians who are sexist, racist and homophobic, or sectarian bigots or indeed money-hungry crooks. A sudden swerve towards evangelism in a previously laid-back group sometimes indicates the arrival of a fundie nutjob, so it bears watching out for.

yes solidgoldbrass, and we should also bear in mind that not all Islam/Judaism/Sikhism/Athiesm/......... is sweet, traditional and harmless. There are plenty of buckethead netters who call themselves Muslims/Jews/Sikhs/Athiests/...... who are...........