AIBU to feel disappointed that religious songs and stories are being introduced to this toddler group?

[neolara]

OK. I'll come clean and admit it's a toddler group that is run in a church, headed up by the vicar's wife and staffed by volunteers from the church community. It is a completely fantastic toddler group. It's wildly popular, very friendly, lovely, lovely volunteers who make cups of tea and hand out biscuits and chat to all the mums. Really, IMO you couldn't ask for anything more from a toddler group. However, today they sang a couple of religious songs in amongst twinkle twinkle and started telling stories about Jesus. This is a new development and looks like a clear change of policy.

Up until today this toddler group was not obviously a "christian group" with no mention of Jesus or God, although families attending the group were invited along to child services and there was always information about the many and various activities the church organizes. I'm pretty convinced that the vast majority of families who go to the group are not attached to the church - they are just a random cross section of the people in our city. They go because it's a great group.

Now obviously, it is a church group, run by Christians and they are perfectly entitled to run it in whatever way they want. The running of the group has recently been taken over by someone new. She is extremely nice and seems very welcoming.

But as a non-believer, I felt very uncomfortable when the singing and stories are happening. I think this is partly because I just think the whole thing is nonsense (sorry to those who do believe, but I just do), partly because I see it as "indoctrinating" (I know this is only because I don't believe - if I agreed with the views I wouldn't see it in this way) and also because it makes me feel that if I don't believe then maybe I shouldn't be attending. I think that as the kids are so young, realistically they won't understand the stories or songs, so the fact that they are now happening is basically a way of signalling to the parents that this is now a religious group. Obviously, I can choose not to attend and this is something I may end up doing. All of which makes me sad because it has been such a fantastic, inclusive, toddler group in the past. I've been going to it for the past 7 years and it's been pretty great for all of that time.

Do you think it is worth mentioning to the (lovely) woman who runs the group the effect of introducing the religious element to the group? (I'd obviously leave out the bit about thinking Jesus is nonsense!) I wonder if she's even aware that by including religious songs / stories it can make it seem actively unwelcoming to those of other / or no faiths. Of course, this may be the effect that they are trying to achieve, which is obviously OK, (if sad for me!)

I can't believe the sense of entitlement that some people have! The church runs a Christian toddler group for Christians. They are all inclusive and anyone is welcome to go along. They do however have to accept it for what it is. The one thing they can't do is go along and say you must run a group to suit me. The people who run it have the Christian element as central-their reason for giving up their spare time.
At the moment I am giving up spare time to help a charity. The work is boring, I am doing it because I think the charity needs the help and they are very worthwhile. I don't expect someone to come along and say 'we like what you are doing, but leave the charity out'. Quite simply, if you leave the charity out they can stuff the job!

If you can't be arsed aren't in a position to do it yourself then you have to take what you get, or not bother, which is your choice. But sitting with your feet up, watching someone else run round and criticising what they're doing is pretty rude, however nicely you may think you're doing it.

Exactly-and in my experience the moaners who are quick to say what they should do are never arsed to be in a position. They are takers-not givers.

exoticfruits The OP asked whether it was wrong to tell the woman who was running the group that she was thinking of leaving and why she was thinking of leaving - do you really think it's preferable if she left as someone who has come for a long time without saying why?

They can really run it the way they want and you take it or leave it. If I decided to give up my spare time and set up a 'red hat toddler group' with the rule that you had to wear a red hat to get in I can do it! If people don't attend I close it but if most people are happy to wear red hats the few who won't can go elsewhere-I have no obligation to suit them. If they force the issue and say they have a human right not to wear a red hat I am perfectly free to say 'fine'-I'm not opening any more-YOU DO IT YOURSELF.

Of course she can tell her why she is leaving-why wouldn't she?
I don't suppose that she is the only person to say it. If I was the person running it I would merely say 'sorry to hear it-if you change your mind you are welcome back'. Why should it change anything?

OP have you gone??

But that's all she asked in the OP - whether it was unreasonable to talk to the woman and leave if it turns out that the leaving of those who feel uncomfortable wouldn't make a difference.

They can really run it the way they want and you take it or leave it

exactly what the OP said in the OP:

Now obviously, it is a church group, run by Christians and they are perfectly entitled to run it in whatever way they want

She wasn't in the least banging on about her own 'entitlement'. And she positively oozed gratitude for the people who run it.

Quite possibly she's gone away now because earlier posters eg LadyPeterWimsey gave her the advice she was seeking and didn't anticipate a continued bunfight

I would have thought it quite obvious-if she isn't comfortable don't go- and of course it would be polite to give a reason. I wouldn't expect it to change anything. From my experience there will be a core who are going because it is a church group. Any church I have gone to have quite a lot of young families attending.

OP - I don't think you are being unreasonable to feel uncomfortable, and to feel uncomfortable about your discomfort etc..

I went to a church toddler group like which had a change of management and went from having no religious content to singing sngs about Jesus every week, parables with themed crafts.

It felt rude to sit there and not to sing the songs, but hypocritical to sing them and play along. In the end I stopped going - not because I thought it would harm or indoctrinate my child but just because the discomfort wasn't worth it for the tea and ride-ons.

I don't think you'd be unreasonable to explain why you are leaving.

Of course it's their church and their choice, do they want to run an open group and support the whole community or a worship group for Christian parents to meet together.

A church will be holding a worship group for Christian parents to meet together-open to all if they want to go.

There will always be community groups that have nothing to do with religion. If there isn't one start one.

I think it is good experience and I would stay. It will help your dc when your child goes to school. At state schools there is a lot of praying, bible stories, singing hymns, christian school plays etc and at least she/he will be able to take part without a problem. The Queen is the Head of State and Head of the Church, so there is no separation after all. If you want separation you may consider moving to France ...

Oh dear, now church groups can't have religious songs and stories, whatever next?

YANBU, OP (though it looks like you've long since disappeared). I agree with the small minority of people here who think you should let the woman who runs the group know how you feel.

My town has a toddler group run by church volunteers that caters for a wide mix of community families, including secular people like myself. There's nothing overtly religious about it at all - no songs or prayers. I love the group and feel very comfortable there. If religious elements were suddenly introduced, I wouldn't go any longer (and I would feel very disappointed). There is another popular local church toddler group that I don't attend because that group is overtly religious and has a much more "let us try to evangelize you" kind of feel. I don't feel comfortable singing along to Christian songs with my child.

Of course a toddler group run by a church has the RIGHT to incorporate religious elements, but you also have the right to feel uncomfortable about it and stop going for that reason. It's up to the church to decide what kind of parents they want to attract: primarily Christian parents, or a broader community. Either choice is fine, but if they're going to push the religion harder, they have to accept that some parents are not going to be at ease there. The group I go to has clearly chosen to try to make people of all faiths feel welcome. I appreciate it and like you, i find that their the low-key approach makes me respect their faith more (because they are not trying to shove their own views down my throat).

Some of these groups receive government funding, by the way, because they are providing a community service. So there's nothing inherently weird about a playgroup being run by a church but not incorporating religious elements.

And by the way, I'm not at all against my child being exposed to religion. I read him religious stories at home because I think they're an important part of Western cultural heritage. He goes to a C of E school because that's our local school. To me, the school issue is different because even though the school is C of E, it openly acknowledges that it caters to families of different faiths, and goes out of its way to be inclusive (for instance, the local imam is on the board of governors). In other words, it's a school that sends out a clear message that secular parents are welcome. (I know not all faith schools are like this, either.) It's quite different from the church playgroup I avoid, where the message seems to be, "We want you to believe in Jesus! Sing along with our Jesus songs and indicate that you believe!"

Oops, I just did a much more long-winded version of what Himalaya said!

I run a toddler group in a church hall and have been lurking with interest. The thing is, these things are all run by volunteers, so the individual volunteer's attitudes, agendas etc will come into play if there's a change.

Sometimes, it will happen that the only person who's around/willing/able to run the group happens to be more keen on singing Jesus songs - it isn't necessarily a conscious choice on the part of the priest/church (mine has never sat down and asked what we do in the group, and has never minded that we've had mothers of other religions/non-religions
involved and helping - though I can't imagine he'd be too delighted if he happened to find out we did Divali crafts but nothing at Christmas)

No, I can't imagine they wouldnt want you not to come anyway. I certainly see ours as something to support all of the local mothers, of whatever faith. God knows, mothers need all the help they can get! But we do do carols at Christmas!

Oh, I love carols, carols are fine!

dikkertedjap so it's not just "leave the churchgroup if you don't like it" but "leave the country"?

Must say you're not a good ambassador for your faith - it's easier for me to respect my friends of christian and other faiths who are happy for me to not believe in what they're believing as long as I'm not pushing my beliefs onto them either.

Hello! I'm back. Frankly I'm quite impressed this thread has nearly reached 200 messages. And my first flaming after 6 years!

Right, this is the plan. I'm to GET A GRIP! As lots of you have pointed out, I probably am overthinking things. The people running the group, as I have already pointed out, really are fantastic and I doubt it would be their intention not to be welcoming to non-believers. I think they are probably realistic enough to know that the majority of people who attend are not religious. Singing a few songs is not going to turn my 2 yo dd into a nun if five years in a convent turned me into a rabid atheist. And yes, I do want my dcs to have an in depth knowledge of bible stories for cultural reasons, so actually I would be happy for them to hear them.

I would particularly like to thank LadyPeterWimsey for her views as someone on the "inside". She was very reassuring.

While a lot of you have pointed out that the church runs groups that are welcoming to all comers, interestingly a large number have opposingly argued that lots of chrisitan groups are often run by christians, for christians. Which I guess sort of backs up my initial feelings of disappointment - join us if you believe and if you don't, push off. Again, as I think I said earlier, if the group had always had a religious element I would have had absolutely no problem accepting that was how it was. Take it or leave it. It's just because that there has been a change of policy which has made me feel this way. I do however, completely accept that I can still take it or leave it. I guess the way I have guaged things in the past is that if a goup has lots of religious content it is clearly run by the church, for the church community. If however it has no religious content, then it is run by the church but everyone is welcome. This thread has made me re-evaluate this view a bit.

I was also interested to note that someone much earlier in the thread said they were part of a group which introduced religious content and the numbers subsequently declined. Therefore, while I accept that lots of people think I am being totally unreasonable, I don't think my response is unique or particularly unusual.

On the "if you don't like it, start your own group you lazy bugger" front, I think you have a point. I did in fact run a baby group as a volunteer for nearly a year so I have done exactly what has been suggested. However, my dcs toddler days are fast coming to an end and I'm afraid with other commitments (family and volunteer) I no longer have the enthusiasm or time to set up such a group.

Thank you all for your comments! This has been very interesting.

Ps as the majority of mothers are
with the church, I'd feel wrong not to do the occasional religious thing and mark our calendar events - mainly it is Christmas where there's anything openly religious (which is always clear in advance, if anyone wanted to avoid), but sometimes we do other stuff like masks and pancakes for carnival/shrove Tuesday; daffodil crafts on St Davids and shamrocks on
St Patricks - I can't imagine any toddler would have any clue that kind of thing is rooted in religion though, so I hope doesn't make any of the other/non-religious too uncomfortable. They seem to keep coming anyway, which I guess says it's fine.

marfisa - In the words of :

I'm looking forward to Christmas
It's sentimental I know, but I just really like it
I'm, I'm hardly religious
I'd rather break bread with Dawkins than Desmond Tutu to be honest
And yes I have all of the usual objections to consumerism
The commercialisation of an ancient religion
And the western-isation of a dead Palestinian
Press-ganged into selling PlayStations and beer
But I still really like it.

I, I really like Christmas
Though I'm not expecting a visit from Jesus
I'll be seeing my dad
My brother and sisters, my gran and my mum
They'll be drinking white wine in the sun
I'll be seeing my dad
My sisters and brother, my gran and my mum
We'll be drinking white wine in the sun.

I don't go for ancient wisdom
I don't believe just 'cause ideas are tenacious it means that they're worthy
I get freaked out by churches
Some of the hymns that they sing have nice chords
But the lyrics are dodgy
And yes I have all of the usual objections to the mis-education of children forced into a cult institution
And taughted to externalise blame
And to feel ashamed
And to judge things as plain right and wrong
But I quite like the songs.

I'm not expecting big presents
The old combination of socks, jocks and chocolate is just fine by me.

'Cause I'll be seeing my dad
My brother and sisters, my gran and my mum
They'll be drinking white wine in the sun
I'll be seeing my dad
My sisters and brothers, my gran and my mum
They'll be drinking white wine in the sun.

And you my baby girl
My jetlagged infant daughter
You'll be handed round the room
Like a puppy at a primary school
And you're too young to know
But you will learn yourself one day
That wherever you are and whatever you face
These are the people who'll make you feel safe in this world
My sweet blue-eyed girl

And if my baby girl
When you're twenty-one or thirty-one
And Christmas comes around
And you find yourself nine thousand miles from home
You'll know whatever comes
Your brother and sister, and me and your mum
Will be waiting for you in the sun
Girl, when Christmas comes
Your brothers and sisters, your aunts and your uncles
Your grandparents, cousins, and me and your mum
Will be drinking white wine in the sun
We'll be waiting for you in the sun
Baby, whenever you come
We'll be drinking white wine in the sun
Waiting.

I, I really like Christmas
It's sentimental I know

I really don't think that the suggestion that people leave the toddler group and rent the church hall to run their own one is a sensible idea! That would lead to all sorts of bad feeling.

In my experience people who run church preschool groups do not intend them to have a religious element. They might invite people to a separate pram service, that will have a religious element, but usually toddler groups are there to serve the whole community, not provide a religious experience of any kind.

In many communities, the church hall will be the only community building, and churches are aware of this in the way that they use it and provide services for others.

Oh, and NorthernLurker and Grendel - non of this new fangled music please. I'm actually quite partial to a great piece of choral work, preferably in latin.

Awww thanks so much Widow W! I love it! Here, have a glass of red since apparently MN doesn't do white.

sarraburd - isn't shrove tuesday based on religious custom? Making pancakes to use up stuff in your larder in preparation for lent.

Mind - I've no objections to shrove tuesday/easter/christmas/diwali/hanukkah/shanatova/eid and other religious festivals being introduced in school/toddler groups etc as a way for children to learn about cultural references and rituals

Maybe I'm being inconsistent there, but I wouldn't personally want to take my child to a group where christian mythology was a regular part of every session and were it was presented as the only truth, though.

Interesting point, OP, about how the posters on this thread are split between "Of course church-run toddler groups are for everyone!" and "Of course church-run toddler groups are for Christians!" The purpose of MN, and indeed of toddler groups: Disputare de omni re in contrarias partes.