AIBU to feel disappointed that religious songs and stories are being introduced to this toddler group?

[neolara]

OK. I'll come clean and admit it's a toddler group that is run in a church, headed up by the vicar's wife and staffed by volunteers from the church community. It is a completely fantastic toddler group. It's wildly popular, very friendly, lovely, lovely volunteers who make cups of tea and hand out biscuits and chat to all the mums. Really, IMO you couldn't ask for anything more from a toddler group. However, today they sang a couple of religious songs in amongst twinkle twinkle and started telling stories about Jesus. This is a new development and looks like a clear change of policy.

Up until today this toddler group was not obviously a "christian group" with no mention of Jesus or God, although families attending the group were invited along to child services and there was always information about the many and various activities the church organizes. I'm pretty convinced that the vast majority of families who go to the group are not attached to the church - they are just a random cross section of the people in our city. They go because it's a great group.

Now obviously, it is a church group, run by Christians and they are perfectly entitled to run it in whatever way they want. The running of the group has recently been taken over by someone new. She is extremely nice and seems very welcoming.

But as a non-believer, I felt very uncomfortable when the singing and stories are happening. I think this is partly because I just think the whole thing is nonsense (sorry to those who do believe, but I just do), partly because I see it as "indoctrinating" (I know this is only because I don't believe - if I agreed with the views I wouldn't see it in this way) and also because it makes me feel that if I don't believe then maybe I shouldn't be attending. I think that as the kids are so young, realistically they won't understand the stories or songs, so the fact that they are now happening is basically a way of signalling to the parents that this is now a religious group. Obviously, I can choose not to attend and this is something I may end up doing. All of which makes me sad because it has been such a fantastic, inclusive, toddler group in the past. I've been going to it for the past 7 years and it's been pretty great for all of that time.

Do you think it is worth mentioning to the (lovely) woman who runs the group the effect of introducing the religious element to the group? (I'd obviously leave out the bit about thinking Jesus is nonsense!) I wonder if she's even aware that by including religious songs / stories it can make it seem actively unwelcoming to those of other / or no faiths. Of course, this may be the effect that they are trying to achieve, which is obviously OK, (if sad for me!)

solidgoldbrass, I still can't believe you wrote this line "I don't know where you are, OP, but could the recent bout of Jeeezus-jonesing be a way to get all the 'immigrants' to go elsewhere?"

Not only are you disrespecting someone's religion by calling it superstition and mythology, but you are implying an anti immigrant stance in having small Christian elements in a church based toddler group.

Regardless of my own personal beliefs, I would never refer to anyone else's religion as "superstition" or "mythology", I would call it their beliefs or their religion.

Also in response to the remark about what if Sikhs, Hindus and Jews want to go- well they have three choices.

1. Go to the toddler group in the church, they don't have to sing but they are still welcome to attend, there is an open door, welcome all policy in churches.
2. Start a group themselves.
3. Go to another completely different group

In fact, the above applies to ANYONE of any religion or none at all. Ignore and go, go elsewhere, start your own. It's not council run, it's church run.

In the church group I went to I didn't particularly like or know the Jesus songs so me and my DS just played in a corner whilst that bit went on. I am Christian but happy clappy isn't my style, however, I completely understood and embraced that others there liked that and enjoyed it. It caused me no trauma.

YABU. It's been said before - IT IS A CHURCH GROUP!!!

SGB why would the immigrants be put off? Polish immigrants are packing out some of the Catholic churches which were struggling to find members before then. My husband, an immigrant, has a strong Christian (not CofE) faith and was delighted to attend a church in the UK, although he finds all the singing and being a bit loud a bit strange (they are a more contemplative denomination). He was welcomed, with his strong accent and all, into the church toddler group, unlike the nice non-religious school gates where people just stared at him.

MillyR- that's the bad thing about the Big Society, you do kind of just have to lump it when you get volunteers who may have their own agendas. If you have a council-run service, they have a duty to make it inclusive/multi-cultural or whatever, if you have a charity, which a very specific religious or political agenda, they can do what they like as long as it doesn't break the law (hence the controversy over Catholic adoption agencies).

Very true Hardgoing. Our RC church, the adjoining school and DD's adjoining pre-school are populated by a huge number of Filipino and Polish families amongst others. Some have English as a second language, first languages include Tagalog and French Creole as well as Polish. That's pretty diverse for a load of immigrant-hating bigots, wouldn't you say?

That's pretty diverse for a load of immigrant-hating bigots, wouldn't you say?

Not really as they are RC so they belong to the same club

Ivy, what a dismissive thing to say. And my husband isn't RC.

If you want to find prejudice and nastiness towards immigrants, don't start looking in church toddler groups, fgs.

Superstition and Mythology, A Superstition is the irrational belief that future events are influenced by specific behaviors.

Myth - A traditional sacred story, typically revolving around the activities of gods and heroes, which purports to explain a natural phenomenon or cultural practice.

I can remember at school being taught that religions use this phrase in many different ways- that if you are good you will go to heaven. Also religions use sacred stories and have books published with the stories.

If you think this type of teaching and use of books doesn't happen in religion - fine, but if you have seen plenty of it perhaps you can understand why people see it as superstition and mythology and it isn't an insult it is how they see religion, how they see religion working and used in and around society.

Sorry, but YABU in my opinion.

Chrisitianity is an integral part of this country's history and it's produced great good as well as bad stuff too. But to be open minded about religion is no bad thing and to be curious about belief. Some secular agnostics tend to be a bit precious about religion imo, as if they might get soiled by being exposed to 16th superstition. But genuinely, I don't believe you will be. I'm a lapsed RCC but still retain a huge respect for organised religion and my understanding of architecture art and history is enriched by having a sense of what drove our forebears. And it wasn't all bad! Look at Durham cathedral, Canterbury, Lincoln, some of this ambition to worship was, it could be argued, productive in human history. The history of education is full of religious founding schools and colleges. Obviously history is complex but to let children hear stories about Jesus could hardly harm them could they? They're mostly loving stories.

My mother is a committed believer and I respect that, her religion mostly leads to her focussing on doing good for others, not a terrible thing!

onagar, you are so wrong. You are saying that church encourages people to spit on gay people? Oh come off it.

Hoe can you say So that later when the church tells them they have to spit on gay people they will do that without thinking.

You are confusing a church toddler group with evil imaginary baddies.

Oh I am well aware that non-Christians can be just as bigoted and toxic as some Christians. But people who are free from religion generally don't justify homophobia, sexism or racism by saying that their imaginary friend wants them to feel that way. But it remains true that an upsurge in Jeezuz-jonesing in a previously all-encompassing group might indicate something dodgy going on.

solidgoldbrass- you sound like you have more prejudices than anyone else on here if that's how you label Christianity and all Christians.

Christianity promotes unconditional love for your fellow man, not hatred. You will find some bad apples in any barrel, but don't label all Christians as hate filled and bigoted, you're really way off the mark and actually insulting to Christians who do embrace homosexuality, woman, education and science (as disputed by onagar above).

I personally think homophobia is completely unacceptable but things take time to change, my parents' generation were homophobic and my generation is far less so. The church is behind the curve on this, which doesn't surprise me.
If you got rid of every institution which was consciously or subconsciously empowered by homophobes there would be no institutions left at all!
Homophobia is endemic but it's changing. To hold the church solely responsible is very simplistic in my opinion.

NestaFiesta mostly the spit is metaphorical, but if you have no idea what I'm talking about then you might want to look into it a bit. You have really missed a lot of what's been going on in the church for the last two thousand years. Have you been away?

To give you a bit of a start look at the various churches attitude to gay and female priests, their opposition to civil partnerships, the closure of the church ran adoption agencies because the church said "if we have to let gay people adopt then we'd rather no one adopted them"

That's without getting into the "don't tell the police if you find a fellow priest abusing children. We want it kept within the church"

Nesta - SGB can defend herself, but I've never actually found her guilty of labelling all Christians. Note the 'some' in the post below.

We go to a todlar group in a church hall..... no religious songs/stories although most weeks the vicar is there - my twins tend to have him either playing 'tea parties' or trains or dressing him up.... I have used the word's nice tutu vicar ;)

I mainly go to todlar groups in churchs as they tend to be friendler yes they would like us to attend church regually - i do somtimes take the kids to a family service dd who is 5 has had a lot of people/pets go 'to heaven' recentley and she likes to quiz the vicar that god is looking after fluffy the rabbit. The twins like the shaking hands and the bubbles in the church A story is just a story, a song is just a song If you kids are happy there and the coffee is good.. keep going:)

listen, you can't blame every German for the Holocaust, particularly modern Germans born years after the events.
Nor can you blame all the people in all churches for homophobia and the terrible institutional abuse by the RCC.
These crimes are hideous and unacceptable.
But there were good Germans, obviously.
There are good Christians, obviously.
There are good Christians in the RCC and in other churches doing wonderful work.
Homophobia is terrible but it's not the ONLY thing that some churches are.

It's much more complex than that, you can't throw the baby out with the bath water you have to try to reform institutions imo. Keep the good, lose the bad.

You only have to look at children's homes and the abuses that happened in those places, it's not just religion, it's bad people, again, imo.

Grimma, the strong impression SGB is giving, without caveats, is this "But people who are free from religion generally don't justify homophobia, sexism or racism by saying that their imaginary friend wants them to feel that way"

onagar- I have not been away, I was married to a C of E Priest and my ex MIL is a deacon.

You will generally find that " don't tell police if you find a fellow priest abusing children" was not said by millions of Christians worldwide and that child abuse and homophobia is roundly condemned by Christians, with maybe some exceptions made by people who in no way exemplify Christianity as a whole. Like I said, there are bad apples in every barrell, don't judge us all by that.

I can't believe people get all this hate and anti-Christian feeling from a few songs sung at a toddler group.

OP - do you live in Worcester?

It's a church group, if you don't like the 'church' part of it, don't go.

Mrs Zimmerman, you said it better than I could. That's just what I wanted to say. Thank you

OP - glad you found my perspective helpful. Do PM me if you need to.

Its not so much the songs as the "oh but of course everyone knows Christianity is nice so what's the problem"

The minute someone says that I'm going to put the other point of view. That it is degrading, unhealthy and a danger to society.

I'm not objecting to the existence of the toddler group providing it is not state funded and that they make it clear that it's for this purpose. Parents who want their child to be the same religion as them must start early or it may not work.

Onagar, can I just clarify? are you saying Christianity is "degrading, unhealthy and a danger to society"?

Hear hear Mrs Zimmerman

There is an incredible amount of ignorance about the modern church on this thread. This is probably very fairly based on experience of churches as a child. But as another poster pointed out that whole generation had similar views.

I know some churchy people hold very polarised views on what is right and wrong. NOT ALL DO.