AIBU to feel disappointed that religious songs and stories are being introduced to this toddler group?

[neolara]

OK. I'll come clean and admit it's a toddler group that is run in a church, headed up by the vicar's wife and staffed by volunteers from the church community. It is a completely fantastic toddler group. It's wildly popular, very friendly, lovely, lovely volunteers who make cups of tea and hand out biscuits and chat to all the mums. Really, IMO you couldn't ask for anything more from a toddler group. However, today they sang a couple of religious songs in amongst twinkle twinkle and started telling stories about Jesus. This is a new development and looks like a clear change of policy.

Up until today this toddler group was not obviously a "christian group" with no mention of Jesus or God, although families attending the group were invited along to child services and there was always information about the many and various activities the church organizes. I'm pretty convinced that the vast majority of families who go to the group are not attached to the church - they are just a random cross section of the people in our city. They go because it's a great group.

Now obviously, it is a church group, run by Christians and they are perfectly entitled to run it in whatever way they want. The running of the group has recently been taken over by someone new. She is extremely nice and seems very welcoming.

But as a non-believer, I felt very uncomfortable when the singing and stories are happening. I think this is partly because I just think the whole thing is nonsense (sorry to those who do believe, but I just do), partly because I see it as "indoctrinating" (I know this is only because I don't believe - if I agreed with the views I wouldn't see it in this way) and also because it makes me feel that if I don't believe then maybe I shouldn't be attending. I think that as the kids are so young, realistically they won't understand the stories or songs, so the fact that they are now happening is basically a way of signalling to the parents that this is now a religious group. Obviously, I can choose not to attend and this is something I may end up doing. All of which makes me sad because it has been such a fantastic, inclusive, toddler group in the past. I've been going to it for the past 7 years and it's been pretty great for all of that time.

Do you think it is worth mentioning to the (lovely) woman who runs the group the effect of introducing the religious element to the group? (I'd obviously leave out the bit about thinking Jesus is nonsense!) I wonder if she's even aware that by including religious songs / stories it can make it seem actively unwelcoming to those of other / or no faiths. Of course, this may be the effect that they are trying to achieve, which is obviously OK, (if sad for me!)

"But I think the difficulty comes when all, or most, of the groups in a town/ village are run by churches, with religious elements that people of different faiths, or no faiths, may feel uncomfortable with. Should these people go off and form their own groups? And then end up with highly segregated groups? Or should there be more neutral groups where everyone can intermix, in which case who should be running them?"

Exactly that - FWIW, I'm currently taking my children to two groups, both in church halls, but I've no idea about the beliefs of the people who are running them. There are atheist, christian, muslim and whatever other faith children happily playing together, without the faith being an issue, as it just isn't a part of play.

Can't the churchy stuff be left to sunday school, so that the play group stays a place where children of whatever faith can play together, rather than asking those of different beliefs to start their own groups as competition to the established ones? Could an atheist join in with running the established group or would you only want volunteers who are Christians, too?

It is a church group!!! Go elsewhere. You don't take toddlers to a swimming pool and say 'we don't want to swim'-or a library and say 'why are they reading stories?'! If you take them to a church group you know what you are getting. Christianity isn't just a Sunday thing and ignored the rest of the week.

It also wouldn't be competition-I used to go to 3 toddler groups.

I dare say an atheist would be very welcome to volunteer but they would have to respect the religious bits. It would be made clear at the start. How people can express surprise I don't know. It is a church group-run by the vicar's wife! I am trying to imagine her mustering her volunteers but saying 'shh-we must pretend it isn't anything to do with the church'!

exoticfruits nope - I'm taking my child to the only toddler group within walking distance, which happens to take place in a church, and I appreciate very much that it's not about faith at all. If it was Christian singsong I wouldn't take her.

If I took my child to sunday school and would complain about the churchiness you would have a point.

have to say I think you are having a really hard time OP - and I am in a similar situation - except my group is the ONLY toddler group in the village. I feel a bit uncomfortable about the songs -also an aethist and its an area with a fair number of non christians who I notice are unrepresented at the group.

It isn't just taking place in a church-it is a church group-the alternative is that they wouldn't run it at all. Certainly if I was giving my free time and the building I would do it my way-people could take it or leave it, but if they are going to try and go and force it their way it is quite simple-I would go home say 'you hire the hall and you run it!'

YABU
This is a v.broad generalisation and based on my limited experience so I am not saying each and every one is like this but:

One of the aims of a church is to spread their message and to all parts of society. They organise and provide many different groups for their community and toddler groups are one of them. If you go to a church group, how can you expect their to be no religious element? Christians are caring considerate people, their faith makes them happy and want to share it with others. YABU to expect them not to on their own premises!

So an atheist would be allowed to volunteer as long as they agree to sing Christian songs? Otherwise they'd have to take themselves elsewhere and do their own group?
I don't shove my atheism down people's throat all the times, and in fact it features not at all in my children's lives. Why is it impossible for some Christians to do the same. For a couple of hours?

If the group was advertised as a Christian group, or a sunday school type setting, I totally agree - it's down to me to keep away from it. But from what the OP described it never featured the Christian element until recently. So it changed from a place she felt welcome and where her child could have fun to something she doesn't feel comfortable going anymore. Is she really wrong to feel a bit sad about that?

It might be a change of direction on the part of the leaders/the church - just ask them why the change. It would be helpful feedback and may make them reconsider. I sincerely doubt its their intention to make the group exclude people.

Or you could just consider it a bit of "advertising" on behalf of the church, i.e. it is being presented but you can take or leave it.

I think you know YABU

AnotherName- "I feel a bit uncomfortable about the songs -also an aethist and its an area with a fair number of non christians who I notice are unrepresented at the group."

How would non Christians like to be represented?

What I mean is that I know how many parents from different parts of the world which are not usually christian there are in the village and proportionately there are less of those people at the toddler group.

I would imagine that all churches have an open door policy for anyone to attend their church toddler group. Certainly the case in my experience. If you were a non Christian, they would not exclude you, but welcome you.

Nestafiesta but once church elements like stories and songs are introduced non Christians will automatically feel less welcome - that's the feeling the OP described.

yes and I am sure that is their intention - but when you are singing christian songs it does exclude people - they could sing ordinary nursery rymes instead

It's possible Christians might feel excluded if they are denied the chance for a toddler group where they can celebrate their faith openly.

I had this experience, more or less, but my problem wasn't with the 'god made the rainbows' type of thing, but the woman who (kindly, non-confrontationally, but firmly) proselytised me. Even this wouldn't bother me (I'm a committed atheist, she undoubtedly feels it is her mission, at least in the confines of the actual church building), but the fact that the two people who were specifically singled out for this attention were me (I'm a lesbian mum and completely open about it, even in a church - especially in a church) and the only single mum there. I was offended by that, and left.

I very much doubt it will have any effect, and if you like the people/set up, don't worry. After all, if you live in the UK (or almost anywhere in Europe) the culture that you come from is historically Christian, whatever you happen to believe.

oh come on - do christians feel excluded when they can't celebrate their faith openly at the supermarket, at the doctors - if people are that enthuastic they will be going to church which in my village has children and baby church as well, why exclude people from a much needed service which as I said in my case is the only one running in the village

It's in a CHURCH, run by a VICAR's wife. They are not infiltrating your homes. You cannot be surprised that a group run by a vicar's wife in a church might want to sing some religious songs. You're on their turf! Why should they stifle their beliefs in case they don't correspond with yours?

They are being inclusive by not saying "Christians only". They are not making you sing. They are not making you agree with them. They are not forcing you to go there. They are welcoming you regardless of your beliefs and you are asking them to stifle theirs because you don't like it.

You're in a church, if you don't like any references to Christianity don't go in the church.

Nestafiesta - and that's what she said she would be doing, since the setup changed from being just a nice toddler group where she could have a good time, to one which now introduced faith as part of the running.

If the vicar's wife wants to push people away by doing so, that's fine, it is her group after all. However it's absolutely not unreasonable to feel pushed away as the group wasn't like that before, but now is. And it is not unreasonable to not feel like you can go to that group anymore, which you used to enjoy.

She would be unreasonable if the group always had had the religious bit and she came in as a newcomer. But that's not the case.

Perhaps some people are not currently in a position to start their own toddler group at the moment. Doesn't mean they're not entitled to an opinion on things they attend though.

And that's the point, isn't it? People are never 'in a position' to do things themselves but they expect others to work to their requirements. If you can't be arsed aren't in a position to do it yourself then you have to take what you get, or not bother, which is your choice. But sitting with your feet up, watching someone else run round and criticising what they're doing is pretty rude, however nicely you may think you're doing it.

honestly why are people bothered? singing a few jesus songs wont make your child grown an extra head - Christians are not going to pinch your toddler and force it to become pope

I had 16 years of imposed "jesus songs" and a catholic education and there's nothing as likely to turn you atheist.

I felt this when DD was little. There was a group in a church within walking distance and it was the most welcoming group I had tried. Just knowing there was a non-stressful place to go to esp when I had PND was a Godsend (scuse the pun). It was sometimes the only time I might leave the house in a week.

Perhaps they were more welcoming becasue they were christians? I dont know.
I've never been quite sure where I stand with Christianity. I was christened C of E and went to a Cof E school but the influence there was minimal, esp with my parents who felt you could make your own mind up what you believed when you were old enough. So I'm still not sure what I believe in.

We went to the group a lot and got to know people who are still friends now. They obviously invited you to attend the family church sessions on Sundays but only by way of leaflets being left out in sight. No-one ever 'pressganged us'. The vicar's daughter ran the Sunday sessions and the kids loved it cos she is young and energetic and made it fun for them. Even my DH who is a comfirmed atheist had no problem with it and has even come along (once!)

There was no praising Jesus in the toddler groups, but even though DD has loved the family sessions they occasionally made me feel a bit uncomfortable because I didn't believe everything we were singing/listening to and I felt guilty to be there if that was the case. But now we have been lots of times and get recognised and people remember you and it's lovely. The kid's holiday club has quite a religious theme, but then it is in their own church. DD has loved it and been a couple of years running.

I agree with the poster who said that singing the songs wouldn't turn a child into a religious zealot. ROFL at teapot example