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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to feel disappointed that religious songs and stories are being introduced to this toddler group?

460 replies

neolara · 05/10/2011 18:40

OK. I'll come clean and admit it's a toddler group that is run in a church, headed up by the vicar's wife and staffed by volunteers from the church community. It is a completely fantastic toddler group. It's wildly popular, very friendly, lovely, lovely volunteers who make cups of tea and hand out biscuits and chat to all the mums. Really, IMO you couldn't ask for anything more from a toddler group. However, today they sang a couple of religious songs in amongst twinkle twinkle and started telling stories about Jesus. This is a new development and looks like a clear change of policy.

Up until today this toddler group was not obviously a "christian group" with no mention of Jesus or God, although families attending the group were invited along to child services and there was always information about the many and various activities the church organizes. I'm pretty convinced that the vast majority of families who go to the group are not attached to the church - they are just a random cross section of the people in our city. They go because it's a great group.

Now obviously, it is a church group, run by Christians and they are perfectly entitled to run it in whatever way they want. The running of the group has recently been taken over by someone new. She is extremely nice and seems very welcoming.

But as a non-believer, I felt very uncomfortable when the singing and stories are happening. I think this is partly because I just think the whole thing is nonsense (sorry to those who do believe, but I just do), partly because I see it as "indoctrinating" (I know this is only because I don't believe - if I agreed with the views I wouldn't see it in this way) and also because it makes me feel that if I don't believe then maybe I shouldn't be attending. I think that as the kids are so young, realistically they won't understand the stories or songs, so the fact that they are now happening is basically a way of signalling to the parents that this is now a religious group. Obviously, I can choose not to attend and this is something I may end up doing. All of which makes me sad because it has been such a fantastic, inclusive, toddler group in the past. I've been going to it for the past 7 years and it's been pretty great for all of that time.

Do you think it is worth mentioning to the (lovely) woman who runs the group the effect of introducing the religious element to the group? (I'd obviously leave out the bit about thinking Jesus is nonsense!) I wonder if she's even aware that by including religious songs / stories it can make it seem actively unwelcoming to those of other / or no faiths. Of course, this may be the effect that they are trying to achieve, which is obviously OK, (if sad for me!)

OP posts:
lostinafrica · 07/10/2011 20:54

sgb, just because you are sure of your beliefs, don't assume that everyone else is. Now and then, someone may come along to this toddler group and think, "These are people I can talk to about the stuff that's been going round my head lately!"

"Peddling to the uninterested" in the meantime is not going to do anyone any harm.

lostinafrica · 07/10/2011 20:57

OP, if you return, just wanted to make the point that if you want your DC to make an informed choice, they will need to be exposed to the religion you'd quite like them to choose against...! :)

MindtheGappp · 07/10/2011 20:59

Lol, SGB protests too much. She must be one of the most insecure members of Mumsnet.

lostinafrica · 07/10/2011 21:01

Everybody interferes in other people's lives, don't they? If that interference sometimes involves beliefs that you think are crazy, why should that be a problem to you?

MillyR · 07/10/2011 21:03

MTG, I think you have an issue with being able to understand that other people have different motivations to you. Christians go to toddler groups for a range of reasons. Not everybody is doing it for the sole benefit of others or for outreach reasons. Many just like going to toddler groups with their friends, whether their friends are Christians or not.

I've never heard of 'leadership positions' in the CofE.

ivykaty44 · 07/10/2011 21:06

NestaFiesta- why don't you like it when someone is truthful about not understanding how you can believe what you believe? You are educated and you are adult, it isn't an insult to call you either - yet you don't like it as others can't understand why you believe.

I can understand it either, I find it very odd. But if I dare to say so I am apparently in the wrong and not being tolerant and being disrespectful and even hateful.

MindtheGappp · 07/10/2011 21:07

Because you haven't heard if them, does not mean they don't exist.

A toddler group will have many leaders - all of those people are in leadership positions. The group doesn't run itself. There is a huge amount of organisation behind a vibrant toddler group.

MillyR · 07/10/2011 21:10

MTG, I have been involved in various toddler groups and Ofsted inspected preschool playgroups. I suspect a lot of people on MN have. I think it is a bit pompous to make out it is some enormous task to do it or that it requires 'leadership groups.'

It is just a toddler group.

NestaFiesta · 07/10/2011 21:11

ivykaty- It's insulting. I am educated and I am an adult, all I ask is that my beliefs are respected as I show respect to others.

You don't need to understand why I feel that way, just to respect that I have made an informed choice and it's my faith.

Can't you see that saying "I can't understand how an educated adult can think such things?" is an insult?

MillyR · 07/10/2011 21:12

And actually this is exactly what puts me off the church.

The constant ridiculous politics and people trying to make out that they are in some position of vast importance because they get to write out the tea urn rota or whatever.

It is very silly.

MindtheGappp · 07/10/2011 21:15

Someone has to lead it! How can it happen if no one steps forward? The team that leads it are all, well, leaders!

No one is claiming that the jobs are big or require special skills. The HS equips those who are called, and those who ask.

An OFSTED sanctioned preschools means that you have a job for renumeration - totally different.

ivykaty44 · 07/10/2011 21:18

then why do you ask for understanding? nesta?

MindtheGappp · 07/10/2011 21:18

Only about 20% of church members actually do anything to run the church. If these people put you off church, ask yourself why. There is plenty to do - step forward!

MillyR · 07/10/2011 21:24

OFSTED registered playgroups are almost always run by a team of volunteers. The childcare workers are paid, but the people who organise the finances, the paperwork, equality and diversity, health and safety etc are just unpaid parents of the playgroup children.

So it isn't totally different.

The leadership of a CofE church is the priest (or priests and deacons if it is a large church) with the help of the PCC. The rest is just the equivalent of secular people organising community events and groups.

NestaFiesta · 07/10/2011 21:25

Respect is what I would like. I would like my beliefs not to be called silly, or ridiculous or referred to as myths or superstitions. I respect other religions that I do not follow or believe, I would simply like mine to be respected.

That is all.

MindtheGappp · 07/10/2011 21:34

Our large CofE church is very different from your view of leadership, Milly. We don't have deacons, but have loads of 'leaders' - not far off 100.

Our vicar would run a mile if we thought he was the only leader. In fact, he has put us all on the CPAS "Growing Leaders" course.

solidgoldbrass · 07/10/2011 21:34

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

ivykaty44 · 07/10/2011 21:37

I can't respect religion of any kind, how can I respect something I don't understand - that would be a lie to say I respect your religion when I don't.

GrimmaTheNome · 07/10/2011 21:38

Works all ways. You may not believe SGB is correct but surely you have to respect her right to believe all gods are imaginary etc? And respect her right to free speech to say so?

MindtheGappp · 07/10/2011 21:39

SGB's latest post is possibly the most reasonable she has ever made on Mumsnet.

Fixture · 07/10/2011 21:40

Trying not to be too intolerant is good though, even if one can't bring oneself to "respect" a different belief.

Himalaya · 07/10/2011 21:41

Madhairday - your approach sounds sensible, welcoming a respectful.

ivykaty44 · 07/10/2011 21:43

tolerance is different from respect,

exoticfruits · 07/10/2011 21:44

The group doesn't run itself. There is a huge amount of organisation behind a vibrant toddler group.

It is very simple. A toddler group is one where the parents are there, in charge of their own DCs. All you need are a few parents, a cheapish hall, some toys and a facility to make drinks.
All the moaners could do it-if they wished. If they don't wish they have a simple choice-look at the ones available and either go or not go.
If I was a volunteer, giving up my spare time I would do it my way-not the way of someone who just comes along and does nothing but criticise.

Has OP not thought to say to the organiser 'can I do the songs this week?' Then she could do the ones she wanted.

My thought is that people like to go along and be very passive and then complain when it doesn't suit. I'm sure they would be overjoyed if OP wanted to lead things sometimes.

NestaFiesta · 07/10/2011 21:46

SGB. It's a long time since anyone has spoken to me with such anger and aggression. I do not think anyone is wrong not to share my beliefs and I do not think my way is the only way.

I am not going to engage with you any more on the grounds that you are in my view, unnecessarily upsetting.

I am sorry to say this, but this has actually reduced me to tears. I don't think I deserve being spoken to like this. I feel I am being shouted at. Two years of posting on MN and I have never cried at a post before.

MTG- do you mean that?