AIBU to feel disappointed that religious songs and stories are being introduced to this toddler group?

[neolara]

OK. I'll come clean and admit it's a toddler group that is run in a church, headed up by the vicar's wife and staffed by volunteers from the church community. It is a completely fantastic toddler group. It's wildly popular, very friendly, lovely, lovely volunteers who make cups of tea and hand out biscuits and chat to all the mums. Really, IMO you couldn't ask for anything more from a toddler group. However, today they sang a couple of religious songs in amongst twinkle twinkle and started telling stories about Jesus. This is a new development and looks like a clear change of policy.

Up until today this toddler group was not obviously a "christian group" with no mention of Jesus or God, although families attending the group were invited along to child services and there was always information about the many and various activities the church organizes. I'm pretty convinced that the vast majority of families who go to the group are not attached to the church - they are just a random cross section of the people in our city. They go because it's a great group.

Now obviously, it is a church group, run by Christians and they are perfectly entitled to run it in whatever way they want. The running of the group has recently been taken over by someone new. She is extremely nice and seems very welcoming.

But as a non-believer, I felt very uncomfortable when the singing and stories are happening. I think this is partly because I just think the whole thing is nonsense (sorry to those who do believe, but I just do), partly because I see it as "indoctrinating" (I know this is only because I don't believe - if I agreed with the views I wouldn't see it in this way) and also because it makes me feel that if I don't believe then maybe I shouldn't be attending. I think that as the kids are so young, realistically they won't understand the stories or songs, so the fact that they are now happening is basically a way of signalling to the parents that this is now a religious group. Obviously, I can choose not to attend and this is something I may end up doing. All of which makes me sad because it has been such a fantastic, inclusive, toddler group in the past. I've been going to it for the past 7 years and it's been pretty great for all of that time.

Do you think it is worth mentioning to the (lovely) woman who runs the group the effect of introducing the religious element to the group? (I'd obviously leave out the bit about thinking Jesus is nonsense!) I wonder if she's even aware that by including religious songs / stories it can make it seem actively unwelcoming to those of other / or no faiths. Of course, this may be the effect that they are trying to achieve, which is obviously OK, (if sad for me!)

Yes, that was my point :)

"tolerance is different from respect"

Gosh, don't let SGB reduce you to tears.

Just command Satan to get off her back.

Thanks MTG, but what did you mean when you said "SGB's latest post is possibly the most reasonable she has ever made on Mumsnet."

MTG, I suppose I'm just not a great fan of having lots of leaders in any situation. I don't feel in need of a great amount of leading (or following for that matter) in my life.

I can see the point of the priest being a leader. In the CofE somebody has to be able to perform certain sacraments that require ordination, and you do need a degree and a postgrad qualification to do it. But I don't see what the point is in anybody else needing a leadership position.

I can assure you that my priest presbyter does not go anywhere near the toddler group. We are big on lay leadership. Our church is big and we have lots of ministries. There is no way that our five ordained people could even make a dent in what we need to do in our community.

yabu.

It's never occurred to me that my children might start believing that sheep produce three bags of wool: one for the master etc.

Or that they might actually think that the cow jumped over the moon and the dish ran away with the spoon.

Or even that five little men in a flying saucer flew round the earth one day.

So if we weren't religious at home, why would they believe that Noah built the Ark or Jesus loves the little children??

OP's being a bit nutty on this.

sgb has a blunt way of talking, but it doesn't read like a personal attack to me. It did make me sit up when I read it, so I can totally understand your reaction, NF.

I think there is a difference between respecting the person and respecting the belief. There's no need to respect other people's belief, but respecting the person's right to hold that belief is the important thing.

sgb, I'm still not sure what you meant when you said that it's not your problem what others believe "unless and until" those people start interfering in other's lives. Is that a problem to you, or are you defending others?

Nesta: I'm sure all the people whos lives have been destroyed by idiot superstitions will be ever so sorry for you and the great trauma you experience when you discover that lots of people have no interest in taking your particular brand of silly superstitions seriously. All those women told to stay with abusive partners because it's Great Pumpkin's will, all those women forbidden access to contraception, abortion, even obstetrics because Great Pumpkin wouldn't like it, all the gays and lesbians thrown out by their families because Great Pumpkin thinks it's a sin not to be heterosexual, all the kids told they can't play with the kid across the road because his/her parents follow a different myth system or none at all... Yeah, they feel a whole lot worse at the thought that someone's actually naming the bullshit as bullshit.

MTG, perhaps the word "leader" is unhelpful? In that it has connotations, to some, of people puffing themselves up with importance? Perhaps we could call you an organiser of the toddler group, and that would end this argument?

The scenario of non-Christian churches running the only groups is unrealistic.

Watching people squirm and avoid the question is always amusing.

Nesta you shouldn't be offended really. Have a think about your own views on Thor, Loki, Brahmin, The American Indian Coyote god, The Mayan god Ajbit who helped create humans from maize, The Voodoo snake-spirits Damballa, Simbi and Petro.
If you are honest you think they are a load of nonsense don't you.

MTG, why do you use the word presbyter rather than priest? Are you not in England?

vincentvangogh - but wouldn't a believing Christian find the idea that the children are told these songs/stories in the outreach session are just fairy tales terribly offensive? Surely the children would bring back to the group that it's just a story and nothing to believed in, which would negate the purpose of the God slot. Or do I get that wrong?

Just looking at Nesta's reaction to the suggestion that one can't understand Christian belief any more than belief in Greco-Roman polytheism.

Christians don't necessarily find it offensive if they come across people who don't believe what they do!

I think that I have solved it OP says that she would like to take a more active part. She sets up a rota and people take turns leading the session. If you know the leader on a particular week is going to have a religious content you have a week off. In my experience people are only too happy to let someone else lead (unfortunately most people don't want to but are quite happy to moan about those who do!)

Maybe haven't expressed myself very well - For example I will attend weddings, christenings and funeral services as a guest if invited, but I don't pray, say the credo, go to the communion as I would find that dishonest of me and disrespectful of those who actually do believe.

For the same reason I didn't marry in church, nor had my children baptised, even though my family suggested I should do it as it's what you do.

So singing along to Jesus songs kind of strikes me as similarly dishonest/disrespectful. So I rather avoid situations where I'd either have to pretend or make my disapproval obvious by not participating.

Maybe it's just me who's wrong her and normally the church people don't care what you believe as long as you keep up the pretense. I just don't like pretending.

I've never found people that bothered about having a go at picking out some songs for a bunch of toddlers to sing. Are most people really that withdrawn that they can't choose a few songs once every few weeks?

I found that getting them to sit at the front and lead the singing was like drawing teeth!

At a totally pragmatic level, churches are ideal groups to run toddler stuff as they tend to have fairly stable members with fairly stable lives, perhaps some slightly older women whose families are growing or have grown up and so relish the chance to spend time with small children. I did run a toddler group (not religious) in a village hall with other volunteers and it was a nightmare even trying to keep a core group of organizers for a year, as people came on/off maternity leave, got pregnant, left the area. It was chaotic and no-one had that real dedication or took pride in developing the group beyond just getting out a few boxes of grubby toys.

I did go to a council-run group which was ok, but funding has been cut for that, and the breastfeeding support group as well. Expecting central government or councils to put aside money for this, in the face of the current and worsening economic crisis is just wishful thinking.

I can't understand why people would get het up about Christians on church-owned property running things as they please. People have a clear choice, if they don't like the tone or the songs or the clapping (which sounds very minor), they can simply stay home and have a cup of tea. Toddler groups are not compulsory. I can get indignant about compulsory worship in schools, though, as this does not allow for free choice of education (which is itself compulsory).

Okay, I was really trying to avoid this one but it's killing me, so:

^"I don't understand how any educated adult can be convinced that Christian mythology and superstition is any more true than Norse, Greek, Roman or Celtic mythology."

Thanks for your kind tolerance and understanding of my beliefs, and those of millions of others.^

So you're basically demanding that those of us who do not subscribe to christian beliefs nonetheless agree that these are actually totally plausible in comparison with everything else they don't believe in? And if we don't it's disrespectful towards your beliefs?

By those standards the only way anybody may legitimately not be a christian but also not disrespectful is if they basically admit your religion is true but insist on not accepting it anyway out of sheer stubbornness. Can you see how this is completely ridiculous?

And, just for the record: No, I actually officially have no respect for christianity. I respect christians as people, but not their beliefs. The idea that an all powerful being that has created other beings in a way that they will behave in a certain manner is then unable to forgive the products of his own design unless he tortures himself to death and then revives himself once more is, ... well, "bizarre" really doesn't do it justice at all!

Please don't bother accusing me of not respecting your beliefs. I never meant to, don't have to, do not feel I want to. That having been said: I'd defend in any way I can your right to hold them.

If you make the choice to attend a christian group then you have to expect that there will be some element of christianty in there surely? If that is an issue you don't feel comfy with you either find another group or withdraw from those parts of the group.

I am a practicing Christian, if I decided to take ds to a Muslim toddler group I wouldn't expect them to change what they do because of my beliefs.

Milly, I am in England. Presbyter is the biblical, and therefore, correct term.

Not a dude ( and others)

I think I have been very misinterpreted on this forum and have had a pasting, which I have taken to heart and been very distressed by.

The only point I wanted to make is this: If someone said to me for example (hypothteically) "I am Hindu/Jewish/Muslim", I would not then say to them "It's beyond my understanding how any intelligent adult can believe that bullshit" etc.

That's all I've been trying to say. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and is entitled to express that, but the above point is the only one I have been trying to make. I'm sorry if I have outraged people or made people angry or if it's come out wrong. I just wanted to say I wouldn't slag off someone's religious beliefs even if they weren't shared by me, but I have been upset when other people wade in and call Christianity bullshit.

Honestly, that is all. Some of the posts directed at me have, in my opinion been harsh and I have been crying. I guess I am not as robust as I thought on here. I know AIBU is tough, but this has been it for me after two years.

When posters on a forum are starting to affect RL and leave you feeling cornered, it's time to go.

Don't take it to heart, Nesta. You have to realise that people with extreme views are always attracted to this sort of post and they will bully. You tell yourself that it is only words on the internet from people that you don't know and it shouldn't be hurtful-but it is.
There is only one point-OP is attending a church run organisation and not liking the fact that the church comes into it. She can simply mention to the organiser that she doesn't like the changes and leave. It isn't the end of the world-there are other groups-nothing stays static and any group is going to have changes after 7yrs. I remember getting upset with my toddler group because they decided they didn't want the over 3yr olds which meant that my under 3yr old couldn't go because I had his older brother. I told the organiser that I didn't agree-she was unmoved so I went elsewhere.
If she was proactive she would start her own-instead of telling other people what they should do when the other people are proactive and giving up their own time.

Ignore SGB in particular-she is always attracted to this sort of thread and I believe the person who told me that she has her usual arguments already written and she copies and pastes. (My guess is that she had a very religious mother-and it was forced down her throat as a DC).

I have come to this conclusion but she harbours an unhealthy anger.