AIBU to feel disappointed that religious songs and stories are being introduced to this toddler group?

[neolara]

OK. I'll come clean and admit it's a toddler group that is run in a church, headed up by the vicar's wife and staffed by volunteers from the church community. It is a completely fantastic toddler group. It's wildly popular, very friendly, lovely, lovely volunteers who make cups of tea and hand out biscuits and chat to all the mums. Really, IMO you couldn't ask for anything more from a toddler group. However, today they sang a couple of religious songs in amongst twinkle twinkle and started telling stories about Jesus. This is a new development and looks like a clear change of policy.

Up until today this toddler group was not obviously a "christian group" with no mention of Jesus or God, although families attending the group were invited along to child services and there was always information about the many and various activities the church organizes. I'm pretty convinced that the vast majority of families who go to the group are not attached to the church - they are just a random cross section of the people in our city. They go because it's a great group.

Now obviously, it is a church group, run by Christians and they are perfectly entitled to run it in whatever way they want. The running of the group has recently been taken over by someone new. She is extremely nice and seems very welcoming.

But as a non-believer, I felt very uncomfortable when the singing and stories are happening. I think this is partly because I just think the whole thing is nonsense (sorry to those who do believe, but I just do), partly because I see it as "indoctrinating" (I know this is only because I don't believe - if I agreed with the views I wouldn't see it in this way) and also because it makes me feel that if I don't believe then maybe I shouldn't be attending. I think that as the kids are so young, realistically they won't understand the stories or songs, so the fact that they are now happening is basically a way of signalling to the parents that this is now a religious group. Obviously, I can choose not to attend and this is something I may end up doing. All of which makes me sad because it has been such a fantastic, inclusive, toddler group in the past. I've been going to it for the past 7 years and it's been pretty great for all of that time.

Do you think it is worth mentioning to the (lovely) woman who runs the group the effect of introducing the religious element to the group? (I'd obviously leave out the bit about thinking Jesus is nonsense!) I wonder if she's even aware that by including religious songs / stories it can make it seem actively unwelcoming to those of other / or no faiths. Of course, this may be the effect that they are trying to achieve, which is obviously OK, (if sad for me!)

I really don't think that the suggestion that people leave the toddler group and rent the church hall to run their own one is a sensible idea! That would lead to all sorts of bad feeling

Why on earth would it create bad feeling?
I think that people are missing the point that these groups are for members of the church to get their DCs introduced to the church in an age appropriate way-they just happen to be all inclusive and everyone is welcome. If you don't like it-don't go. The organiser is going to understand if you tell her why you are not going any more, but there is no need to change. I went to 2 over the years-one started in the church for the service and moved over to the hall for tea and toys. The other one was in the church hall, we all sat around for the service and then moved the chairs back for tea and toys. I went to a church recently for family history purposes, mothers were arriving in the church for the toddler session. As I walked into town today I saw mothers with buggies arriving at the church hall-it was quite obvious to me that it was the church central and play as an extra.

If you succeed in changing it, which I doubt, I am then very confused as to where the Christian mothers are expected to get the session they want.

This is why I can't understand why there would be bad feeling-there are always community group toddler groups-if there aren't start one.
A church group is exactly what it says a church group. They are not trying to make anyone go if they are uncomfortable-don't! Why you would want to go if you are very anti is beyond my understanding!

madhairday, that's fair enough. I'm not really even trying to change anyone's mind. Just making sure that people know there is another position to choose from.

For what it's worth my own introduction to religion as a child was not really a conspiracy to groom me, but a nice old lady who thought that my mum would probably appreciate an hour or two of peace on a Sunday and that me and my sister might have fun meeting the other kids in Sunday school.

She organised a walking bus long before there was a name for it.

Mind you if there IS an afterlife she is probably really embarrassed at the way I turned out. Like being the careers teacher who told Hitler to get into politics. :o

BoffinMum, I'm pleased to hear it - genuinely pleased. I've never thought that the majority of church goers were evil, but it has always been traditional to keep quiet about the things that happen out of misguided loyalty so that is a very positive sign.

Exotic - but the OP said she went to this group for 7 years and it was a community toddler group run by the church. It wasn't the kind of Christian parents group you are describing at all.

It seems to me that people have the odd idea that the church is Sundays. If the group is held in a church hall on a Sunday they would know what it was, there seems to be confusion because it is on a Tues or a Thurs etc but it really doesn't make a difference-a church group is a church group-whatever day of the week.

It sounds to me like a change of policy Himalaya and that in future it will follow the norm.
I would suggest OP asks why it has changed, points out that she preferred the old way and asks about the future. From there she can decide whether to continue or go elsewhere.

madhairday- Thank you for your sensible, rational posts. I was feeling a bit wobbly.

boffinmum - it doesn't neccessarily follow that because it is a protestant religion it is about questioning doctrine and making your own mind up. It just questions whatever doctrine it split of from to replace with their own - look at all the creationist hardcore evangelicals - they're protestant. Protestantism does not equal promoting of critical thinking.

CoE was mostly created for political reasons, as it was a convenient way for Henry to get away from the Pope's influence and repossess all the RC's property. And he could get divorced.

Yes, CoE is probably more open-minded and kind of secular than a lot of other Christian denominations, but it still has some pretty hefty stuff in its liturgy, which made me flinch during the last few baptisms I've attended (friends' children, I hasten to add, not my own)

Himalaya - yes I see what you mean. I'm trying to think of how we would have handled that as our toddler group did a song like that from the very start so it was part of the fabric as it were. I think the only parallel I can draw is when we decided to start a termly 'service' through in the church for the parents and toddlers - by invitation of course, not expectation. It was never instead of the normal toddler group session, always after it then we would pile back in for a big shared lunch/Santa and presents at the Christmas one. The service was more explicitly Christian but that was explained on the invitation so there was no implicit agendas or such taking place.

I guess then that in the OP's toddler group situation, as leader/on committee it may have been a good idea to ask parents if they minded us singing this song/teaching new song with actions which is a Christian song etc, sounding people out, or saying perhaps we're going to sing this one at the end, feel free to stay or go.

In the end funnily enough pretty well the whole of the toddler group used to traipse into those services, poss because there was often chocolate involved

Thanks Nesta, I appreciate that :)

At our church run toddler group (the best in town and with a waiting list), the only religious bit was saying a religious grace (e.g. 'Thank you God for our food, Amen) which is pretty much what I said during the entire seventies at my state school ('For what we are about to receive, may the Lord make us truly thankful'). There were also leaflets about events about the place, and once the enthusiastic new youth worker asked my husband if he'd like to go along to a more specific group where they did Christian stories etc for little children, we didn't go but didn't feel offended that he was asked.

To me, by stepping into a church or going to a group run by church members, you have to be respectful that this is someone's place of worship, and that they may indeed want to mention that in a song or by giving you a leaflet. If you feel terribly strongly that you simply can't have mentions of Jesus nonsense in any song you ever sing with your children or any stories you ever hear, then you don't go into the church space (what do you do if your child accidentally sees the cross on the way out, cover their eyes?)

Madhairday, why the heck should the Christian group leader in a toddler group held in the church say 'do you mind if I mention Jesus?' They may never have in the past, but I wouldn't call this an unexpected development, really.

it doesn't neccessarily follow that because it is a protestant religion it is about questioning doctrine and making your own mind up

Yeah, you have to be at least a Nonconformist for that

Actually the one religion I've ever come across which positively says you should question and test everything it teaches is Buddhism.

hardgoing, it's not the fact of mentioning Jesus in a toddler group run by church (as I said ours did from the start) it's the fact that the OP's toddler group had a sudden change which made her uncomfortable. It would simply be polite and courteous to say 'we're going to sing something different today, it's based around our faith and we'd like to share it and the children to enjoy it but also want you to feel welcome and comfortable here, so please let us know your feelings' or as I said perhaps 'we're going to sing this new song today, it's a Christian song, we understand if people don't want to stay for it so it will be at the end' all the way through re-iterating the welcome and inclusivity.

I'm not one for apologising for my faith or mentioning Jesus, if you read most of these types of threads you'd know that and I'm sure this lot would back me up on it but I believe as a Christian that there is a need for courtesy and just thoughtfulness for people's feelings.

I think that's why we did the extra toddler service - so never changed the toddler group but offered the extra for those who want it. :)

The CofE does not have to provide endless social services to the community, especially dictated by members of the community who are antagonistic to church values.

What the CofE is required to do is to provide pastoral care to anyone who lives in a parish. This typically means baptism, marriage and funerals for parish residents. Parish residents can also join the electoral role and vote at the APCM, even if they have no other connection with the church.

Toddler groups are outreach - bringing the gospel message (with or without words) out into the community.

Some CofE churches may run toddler groups with no mention of Jesus but they are on the reticent wing of the church. At my church, we are not afraid of the gospel.

In reality, most visitors don't really care about our offerings. When I was involved in our toddler group, we had a 10-minute God-slot when we would whisk all the children away, and the parents could take a hot drink back to their seats. For a lot of mums, that is their priority (this may be the only chance in the week to relax and not have to worry).

What I observed was that most new mums, especially the stressed ones, were overwhelmed with the love and support they encountered in our group. It took a while for them to realise that there were people to listen and care without wanting anything in return. It is quite a step out of secular values. They don't realise that church workers do not operate under their own power.

Madhair, sorry I wasn't meaning to sound like I was having a go at all at you, yours sounded a lovely group and you personally as a really caring courteous leader, however, I don't personally think people can be indignant if the word 'Jesus' is mentioned in a church toddler group, whether in a grace or in the leaflets around the place or in a song, because this is a space in which I would personally expect these things to a greater or lesser degree, and I would feel like I had to respectful of those beliefs whilst being in that space (and personally disagreeing with them in my own private life).

I don't think grovelling apologies or, 'do step out if you don't want to sing 'Who built the Ark?' is necessary myself.

How would those of you who are Christians feel, though, if the only toddler groups in town were in the mosque, or the synagogue, or indeed were run by the local coven and took place in a stone circle? Would you expect such groups to concentrate on fingerpainting, teddy bears' picnics and Old MacDonald, or would you think that a few prayers to an imaginary friend that isn't your imaginary friend just something you had to put up with?

Or is your viewpoint that as the Christian myths are the state-endorsed myths, they get special status and it's OK to peddle them at the uninterested no matter what?

SGB, you don't understand Christians, clearly.

The scenario of non-Christian churches running the only groups is unrealistic.

If there is a need for a Christian group, the Holy Spirit will put it on the hearts of Christians to start one and equip them with the necessary spiritual gifts.

SGB, If I went to a toddler group in a mosque, I wouldn't complain if it was "too Islamic" that's for sure, especially if they were welcoming to me.

If I was that dead against setting foot in a religious setting for my toddler group, I would complain to my council and ask them to do more to set up a secular one.

I always respect the religion and beliefs of others, whether I agree with them or not.

MindTheGapp: Not that unrealistic. Like it or not, the UK is a multi-cultural country and there are places with high concentrations of people who subscribe to a myth system other than Christianity.

But you're right that I don't really understand Christians. I don't understand how any educated adult can be convinced that Christian mythology and superstition is any more true than Norse, Greek, Roman or Celtic mythology.

I think it might be quite interesting to go to a toddler group in a coven and find out a bit more about the people who ran it.

MTG, I really don't think that it is a case of some Christians being reticent to mention Jesus. It is more the case that lots of people have a social life within their church community that extends beyond church services.

So people may go to the church hall for church run bingo nights, meals, social events, toddler groups and so on.

Christian parents probably already take their children to Sunday school, pram services etc. They don't therefore require people to mention Jesus and sing songs about him every time they are playing bingo or drinking tea at toddler group. Just because something is run by the church does not mean that it has to be turned into an act of collective worship. It has nothing to do with reticence and simply to do with Christians doing a range of different things, like everybody else.

"I don't understand how any educated adult can be convinced that Christian mythology and superstition is any more true than Norse, Greek, Roman or Celtic mythology."

Thanks for your kind tolerance and understanding of my beliefs, and those of millions of others.

SGB, I live in the #1 area in the UK for immigrants - Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, as well as Eastern Europeans. I know what I am talking about, and there are still plenty of 'home grown' Christians.

And what is really great is that we co-exist beautifully.

Nesta: tolerance of silly beliefs means not stopping people from believing nonsense. It doesn't mean taking nonsense seriously. People are entitled to believe in the Christian myths, the Jewish ones, the Islamic ones, the myths of all the major myth brands that are currently active in the world, along with the Greek/Roman/Norse/Celtic ones, homeopathy, astrology, reiki, alien abductions, ghosts, and that Princess Diana is shagging Elvis while Lord Lucan rides Shergar past their bedroom window. I regard all these beliefs in exactly the same light - not my problem, unless and until the person who believes in any or all of them decides to start interfering in other people's lives.

Our church toddler group is about 20% church family and 80% outreach.

If the group is largely secular, then the reticence is on the part of the leaders. Given that a large team is needed to run the group, the majority of church families are in leadership positions. I am pretty sure that all church family participents also lead the pram sevice and are involved in 'Sunday School'. They are not using the toddler group as a place to get 'their fix'. It is all about transforming lives - it is not about them, but about others.