AIBU to feel disappointed that religious songs and stories are being introduced to this toddler group?

[neolara]

OK. I'll come clean and admit it's a toddler group that is run in a church, headed up by the vicar's wife and staffed by volunteers from the church community. It is a completely fantastic toddler group. It's wildly popular, very friendly, lovely, lovely volunteers who make cups of tea and hand out biscuits and chat to all the mums. Really, IMO you couldn't ask for anything more from a toddler group. However, today they sang a couple of religious songs in amongst twinkle twinkle and started telling stories about Jesus. This is a new development and looks like a clear change of policy.

Up until today this toddler group was not obviously a "christian group" with no mention of Jesus or God, although families attending the group were invited along to child services and there was always information about the many and various activities the church organizes. I'm pretty convinced that the vast majority of families who go to the group are not attached to the church - they are just a random cross section of the people in our city. They go because it's a great group.

Now obviously, it is a church group, run by Christians and they are perfectly entitled to run it in whatever way they want. The running of the group has recently been taken over by someone new. She is extremely nice and seems very welcoming.

But as a non-believer, I felt very uncomfortable when the singing and stories are happening. I think this is partly because I just think the whole thing is nonsense (sorry to those who do believe, but I just do), partly because I see it as "indoctrinating" (I know this is only because I don't believe - if I agreed with the views I wouldn't see it in this way) and also because it makes me feel that if I don't believe then maybe I shouldn't be attending. I think that as the kids are so young, realistically they won't understand the stories or songs, so the fact that they are now happening is basically a way of signalling to the parents that this is now a religious group. Obviously, I can choose not to attend and this is something I may end up doing. All of which makes me sad because it has been such a fantastic, inclusive, toddler group in the past. I've been going to it for the past 7 years and it's been pretty great for all of that time.

Do you think it is worth mentioning to the (lovely) woman who runs the group the effect of introducing the religious element to the group? (I'd obviously leave out the bit about thinking Jesus is nonsense!) I wonder if she's even aware that by including religious songs / stories it can make it seem actively unwelcoming to those of other / or no faiths. Of course, this may be the effect that they are trying to achieve, which is obviously OK, (if sad for me!)

Scathac, tothemoonandback, GwendolineScaryLacey (and others...)

I think you are all somewhat missing the point. There are many, many toddler groups held in Church of England church halls (like the OPs one for 7 years) which are not based around religious content. Many, many people go to them who wouldn't go to religious groups. If they had to 'half expect' that at any moment at might take a religious turn, they wouldn't go at all.

The CofE has a mission to serve the whole community, this is different from a synagogue, mosque or even an RC church set up to serve a particular religious minority.

Which is not to say that a CofE church can't if it wants to, run children's activities for the religiously inclined. But to spring it on people who for 7 years had been coming to a group that was not religiously based is just rude, and the OP is not being unreasonable to feel a bit taken aback.

This is not the same as wondering why you can't eat a bacon sarnie in a jewish toddler group.

Nesta - no no, he's saying the passive acceptance that all christianity is 'nice' is unhealthy. Huge difference!

NestaFiesta I am yes. Surely not the first time you've encountered that opinon?

To be clear that would apply to all the main religions not just Christianity. Islam and Judaism for example are essentially the same as Christianity with a few name changes. (Not sure where'd you'd put Buddhists as that is a bit different.) Scientology, The Mormons etc all just as bad.

Grimma I am saying what you said but I do take it a bit further.

Onagar - for me it is the songs - I just can't sing 'Jesus Love is Very Wonderful', it makes me itchy. Although I will happily sing xmas carols in the right context. So then I have to sit there and not sing it. Which feels rude.

I will admit to liking 'Jerusalem' but then again I'm safe enough singing along as I'm not going to suddenly take Jesus into my heart at my time of life :)

It's the thought of all those innocent little faces watching their carer/teacher and taking it all in.

I am really genuinely upset and astonished at the hatred and heated feeling against Christianity on this thread. I have rarely seen such strength of feeling from so few on Mumsnet. Some of the labels being stuck on Christianity have astonished me with their vitriol.

Himalaya, it's not the group that's rude for introducing a few songs, it's the people who get uppity when religion is mentioned in a church who are rude. The church is run and funded by the Church Commissioners, not by the local council therefore there may some (easily ignored) religious content. If it was council run, council funded and somebody rail roaded it into becoming religious, then maybe OP would have a point. It is run by the vicar's wife, in a church, which is church funded, and the building, built by Christians, will have been consecrated and blessed by clergy.

How hard is it to shrug off a few songs? Would it really make people boycott the church for being (shock, horror) religious?

The CofE has a mission to serve the whole community, this is different from a synagogue, mosque or even an RC church set up to serve a particular religious minority.

That's having your cake and eating it, isn't it? You can't complain that the church has its fingers in all the schools pies while at the same time expecting them to serve the community by very dint of the fact that they are C of E. Make your mind up. Either you expect them to open up and welcome all comers or you want them to butt out of your life completely. And if a synagogue opens its doors to run a non-religious toddler group then it's exactly the same as the church doing it.

Er yes, that's exactly what you can complain about. Being the state religion gives the CofE privileges but it also carries responsibility to serve all the people of the state. Otherwise its 'having its cake and eating it.'

Really? Thread after thread after thread of people complaining that every school insists on telling their child about Jesus, why the hell do we have to have this in 2011, what relevance has the church got these days, we're no longer a Christian country blah blah blah oh, but btw, make sure you're there providing all the entertainment we expect for our toddlers because we are, after all, a Christian country so it's your duty...

NestaFiesta Not just christianity for me at least, but all religions. However you may notice that I'm ok with the toddlers group being religious as long as it's clear about the purpose and not state funded. I have no interest in stopping religious people doing their thing as long as not pushing it on others.

I'm surprised at your surprise though. In many countries being religious was actually illegal and probably still is in some. In Iran a man is about to be executed for being the wrong religion. In America it was necessary to pass laws preventing religious people from teaching the kids rubbish about god making the world.

None of this is new.

onagar-The vitriol is new to me. Although I am not so naive as to be blind to the fact that most wars are caused by religion and Catholics used to burn people at the stake 500 years ago etc etc.

However, the anti-Christian stance on here has really taken me aback. I didn't think it was OK to mock and insult people's beliefs. I guess it is now, I have seen so much of it on here. I just feel really sad.

Nesta - no contradiction. While the CofE is the established church, it gets undue influence over many aspects of life which should be secular, including schools. But part of its excuse for existing as an established church is that it serves the community.

Disestablish the church, please do - then no-one will expect the CofE to run services which should be provided on a secular basis.

Nesta - I'm pretty sure that the 'vitriolic' posters are anti all religions, not specifically anti-Christian.

There may be a small extra element of disestablishmentatrianism but that's not a matter of hatred of religions, just pro-secularism. (damn.... I so wanted to word the sentence to get antidisestablishmentarianism in there...)

Nesta a lot of these threads say the same type of stuff. I don't flinch anymore but used to have your reaction. I find it interesting to engage in debate however so carry on bashing myself over the head wading in.

Church toddler groups. Well I am a clergy wife who also ran a (very successful) toddler group. May I say that the toddler group was not set up with the 'toxic' objective of indoctrinating all the innocent children and converting all the parents to homophobia and misogyny It was mainly set up, by a group of us mums from the church because we wanted to drink coffee and gossip while our children played happily with good quality clean toys.

And it evolved from there. We started out I guess as 'christian' in the sense that the last song was, I'm afraid, the dreaded 'Jesus love is very wonderful'. When we tried to change it to something a little less sickly both children and parents complained.

The group was always open to all and none of this 'do you have a bible' on the forms (wtf?) People of all beliefs and none came along and eventually it became so overcrowded a new one on another day was started and we got all official like with AGMs and Treasurers and whatnots. But the aim was always to bring tired mums and dads together, to befriend lonely people, to give the dc some fun. And it achieved that. And that is what most toddler groups, church or not, do.

As regards the OP, I would be unhappy if you felt like this without discussing it with me and giving me a chance to explain and talk it out. I would listen to you and your views and respect them as much as anyone elses.

Quote from Onagar

"Yes and gradually we are putting a stop to it with its hatred of gay people, women and its opposition to education, science and progress in general.

It's about teaching the little kiddies that this is the church you can trust and follow without having to do any thinking. So that later when the church tells them they have to spit on gay people they will do that without thinking."

Come on. Do you really think that? Really? Are there not enough nic-ish christians on MN that ermmm don't believe in spitting on anyone in evidence?

Northernlurker, I think I may love you simply for printing the words to 'In Christ Alone' on an AIBU thread

TBH the homophobic, woman-demeaning, anti-science C of E is really not one I recognise. However older people getting their knickers in a twist over women priests and gay issues makes good headlines, and that gets reported a lot more often than the gentle, accommodating, community minded stuff that goes on in most of the country.

madhairday Not everyone wants them to be homophobic when they grow up but the majority want them to believe (have faith) that what their religion tells them is always true.

You will have seen on threads about removing religion from schools that most religious people feel it is essential to start young. When other posters say "but they will learn all about religion. They just won't be told it is definitely true" that is rarely good enough.

So while not every religious person is a bigoted, homophobic, misogynist, they are responsible for encouraging children to believe without question what their particular organisation says is true and therefore share a responsibility for the result.

In addition their 'enthusiasm' and the way schools are run here frequently means that other people's children are taught to believe in their particular religion which is even worse as those other parents get little choice in the matter.

Hang on, hang on.
C of E is a protestant religion, which means that it was founded on the basis of objecting to another religion's doctrine.
The whole point of the C of E is that you are supposed to engage with it critically and question it at every opportunity, not go along with it blindly. People talk about 'journeys of faith' for that reason - i.e. there are highways and byways and detours and all sorts, and it is by no means a smooth, uncritical path. And over time it tends to change as people change.
So that is the USP, if you like.

PS Some of us get very cross with the C of E sometimes, and start agitating, which is where the whole women priest thing came from in the first place. By no means were we happy to sit there arranging flowers and smiling while the men got the front row seats, so to speak.

I guess it depends on what you think Christianity (or insert other religion) does actually believe and teach on these matters. I think BoffinMum is right, the headline-achieving shitty stuff is not the stuff that keeps the wheels turning in the CoE or any church. It's generally the toddler groups/community groups/gentle day to day stuff.

I would like to refute the statement that we are responsible for encouraging children to believe without question what my particular organisation says is true.

I don't believe any human organisation has it all wrapped up.

I teach my children what I believe and they have experience of church and are left to make up their own minds from that. There has never been a question of forcing them to believe.

Unfortunately, in the past the organisation of the church has done some pretty shocking stuff, which is still dragged up time after time on these threads despite evidence of how it generally works these days. Yes, crap went on. Does that mean all churches/the CofE as an entity is inherently racist/sexist etc etc now?
Sigh.

yy BoffinMum

And why should they get to wear all the pointless pretty robes?

BoffinMum on the whole (and at this moment in time) the C of E is less bigoted than some of the others. Especially now that some of those who really wanted to hate gay people and women have left to join a church that better suits their needs.

On the other hand its position as part of the government/state religion gives it a sense of entitlement which is some ways makes it more dangerous.

In any case being a milder religion can act as a stepping stone. I'd rather no one pushed their religion onto vulnerable children, but waited until they were old enough to think for themselves.

I can actually understand what you are saying onagar. If I was looking at it from another side and worrying that somebody was trying to push something at my child that I felt was toxic and stunted their reasoning etc, I would be not keeping quiet about such. It's why I don't tend to rush into these threads telling people they're being unreasonable, in general, because I see the reasonableness in the reasoning. IYSWIM

But from this side I have something that doesn't mean hate, misogyny, homophobia, anti-reason and all the rest. I see something life enhancing, freeing and something that gives hope and purpose, and does so for dc as well as for adults. If this was pushed upon them in a way contrary to that life and freedom I would be suspicious and unhappy about such methods. But such groups as the OPs friendly toddler group seem to me to be simply living out what they have found. There is a real difference between a religion that pushes and stunts growth and a living faith which encourages people to be who they were made to be :)

If I encountered any of those negative aspects of church I would be out of there in a shot until it was sorted. Don't think for a moment that just because someone is baptised and attends church they put up with antediluvian attitudes. In fact there was a church round here that had a temporary outbreak of nastiness and the C of E swooped in with a crack pastoral squad to bring it back on track and spread the love, which actually worked. They also invested heavily in community initiatives, where there is no hard sell and a lot of support for working families and deprived groups. I was quite relieved and impressed when I realised that had happened and it says a lot for what attitudes predominate at the highest levels in the C of E now.

NESTA - Its not about boycotting or being uppity. If there is a toddler group that says on the poster "We will be sharing Christian songs and bible stories" I wouldn't go. I wouldn't boycott it, or be pissed off they were running such a group, it is a church after all, its just not my thing.

If on the other hand a church was running a group to bring tired mums and dads together, to befriend lonely people, to give the dc some fun as madhairday says - then I would go.

If they change the rules half way through it is rude, it puts people on the spot who have come there for one thing and suddenly find themselves involved in something they don't feel comfortable with.

I don't expect churches to run such things, but I think its nice that they do. I think they do it to be part of the community and I'm happy enough to go along. I wouldn't desecrate the cross or do anything disrespectful while I'm there

I think it is weird when religion is so much about meaning and symbolism that if you take that meaning and symbolism seriously you are accused of overthinking it "How hard is it to shrug off a few songs? " - if someone went into a church and stuck a devil's mask onto the face of Jesus people wouldn't say "how hard is it to shrug off a piece of plastic?"

Madhairday -- your perspective as a vicar's wife is interesting, and your toddler group sounds fab. If you were the vicar's wife in this situation though saying you would be unhappy if people didn't come and talk to you and give you a chance to explain the change seems a bit like putting all the onus on individual parents to make their feelings known. The organisers of the group have every chance to explain that they are changing the basis of it - for example they could put up a notice, go round and talk to people, change the name of it, make an announcement, give people out a survey for feedback etc.. they are in a position of relative power. As this thread has shown many individuals would just feel like they should suck it up, because its your church not theirs.