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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think that it's not racist to describe someone who is black as being black.

179 replies

lovingthecoast · 05/10/2011 12:50

Sorry, probably haven't worded that very well but I'm feeling a bit upset and shaky after virtually being accused of racism.

Just took DS2 (3wks) to clinic. It's a large clinic with a few HVs and nursery nurses helping. I had had a conversation with one of the ladies last week and brought up said conversation today. HV asked who I'd spoken to and I said 'sorry I can't remember her name but the tall, black lady.' HV practically gasped, looked at her helper then said to me, 'We'd rather not describe people in terms of their ethnicity as it's considered rather offensive.' She was then frosty with me for the rest of the time.

I'm quite gobsmacked for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I was giving a physical description of the woman so to me, saying she was black was just like saying she had blonde curly hair or something. Secondly, is it really considered racist to make mention of someone's skin colour? I wasn't implying she was somehow inferior (in fact she was very helpful, more so that this HV) I was merely describing her so they'd know who I was talking about. If 3 of the 4 HVs were black and I wanted to point out the white one, I'd say the white one.

I know I'm hormonal but it's shaken me and since Ive come home I'm starting to feel angry about it and a bit teary. Oh I don't know, it's made me doubt my use of language even though I didn't think I was attaching anything to the colour of her skin if that makes sense.
Talk to me please and tell me straight whether she was being UR or whether I need to look at my language a bit more. Thanks

OP posts:

seeker · 05/10/2011 14:12

A vey strange turn of phrase- don't think I've ever heard anyone use languagenin that way.

madmomma · 05/10/2011 14:12

Ha hahahhaha! Love that image, Tatty.

Original poster

lovingthecoast · 05/10/2011 14:13

Thanks again everyone! I'm feeling much better now after a cup of tea. Thing is, this is my 4th baby so I'm not desperately anxious but was obviously still too emotional to challenge her on it. I was also partly upset wondering if she was right and I shouldn't have used the word, black.

Im not sure about complaining or who Id complain to as she is a community HV and goes around a few practices. But then I wonder how awful would I have felt if I was a first time mum having a hard time and without access to MN!

OP posts:

Trills · 05/10/2011 14:13

If I had one arm, or a massive birthmark, or was albino, or some other really obvious distinguishing feature, and someone was trying to identify me I would think they were a bit silly to not use that distinguishing feature as a very easy way to mean me and not any other person who was a similar height or had similar hair or whatever.

madmomma · 05/10/2011 14:15

I think if you have to speak to that HV again, you should frostily point out to her that whilst you are female, and a parent, you do not wish to be referred to as a Mum

MamaMary · 05/10/2011 14:15

That upsets me too, lovingthecoast - the fact that she can be so downright rude and overbearing to someone who's basically just given birth. I remember too well how vulnerable and sensitive I felt at that time - and I'm not normally like that at all. I too fear for those first-time mums.

BoffinMum · 05/10/2011 14:17

Oddly I think I would mind being identified by large birthmark, ample arse or my large norks.
Otherwise I reckon anything is fair game.

BoffinMum · 05/10/2011 14:19

I would consider telling her you got quite upset about what she said and that most people would probably not agree it's offensive. But more importantly it was the way she said it that was so upsetting, and the implication that you are unenlightened and need educating in some way.

caramelwaffle · 05/10/2011 14:20

Yadnbu.

She is beyond daft.

(Ohhhh the fun and games we are going to have as DD gets older)

RedHotPokers · 05/10/2011 14:23

Trills Wed 05-Oct-11 14:13:40
"If I had one arm, or a massive birthmark, or was albino, or some other really obvious distinguishing feature, and someone was trying to identify me I would think they were a bit silly to not use that distinguishing feature as a very easy way to mean me and not any other person who was a similar height or had similar hair or whatever".

Made me wonder whether its okay if the person is very fat. One of the mums I vaguely know is very obese, and before I actually knew her name I kept being stuck when trying to describe her to people. For example 'So-and-so's mum, you know her, well she has brown hair, and she has a pink umbrella, and her husband is quite tall etc etc.'

A whole lot of mumbling around could have been saved if I'd just said 'you know, the fat/large woman', but I was too afraid of being and sounding mean!

MamaMary · 05/10/2011 14:27

RedHotPokers, I personally think 'the large women' or 'she's quite a large woman' would have been fine. I can think of several times when that's been used in conversations I've been part of.

However, how would large person in question actually feel? I don't know.

Original poster

lovingthecoast · 05/10/2011 14:29

I don't think I'd refer to someone by their birthmark or any facial disfiguration. Maybe that makes me sound ridiculous but I just see skin colour as a state of being if that makes sense whereas having a large birthmark or facial disfigurment can affect someone's psyche and make them feel alone and self-conscious. I don't see skin colour as having that affect. Though maybe the HV does and that's what she was getting at.

OP posts:

Original poster

lovingthecoast · 05/10/2011 14:31

Meant disfigurement not disfiguration.

OP posts:

Debs75 · 05/10/2011 14:32

YANBU you were simply describing the woman.
Racism is putting someone down because of ther race not describing them.

I have been accused of racism before. A gorgeous woman was near me and I couldn't take my eyes off her skin, she was black and her skin was flawless and very smooth and shiny. My friend asked what I was looking at and I told her 'that black woman, look at her skin it is gorgeous' She was so shocked she pulled me away out of the shop.

How is that different from admiring soft blond bouncy curls or a very tall person?

mrjellykeepskidsquiet · 05/10/2011 14:51

YANBU.

It's in no way racist to describe someone as black.

AMumInScotland · 05/10/2011 14:51

I'd hesitate to describe someone in terms of something they might feel bad about - a disability or birthmark etc. Though I'd probably not hesitate to mention that the person uses a wheelchair, walking frame, stick, white cane, guide dog etc. Which is possibly a bit of a daft distinction, but it's external to them whereas the underlying being unable to walk or being partially sighted is about something very personal to them, and which they may or may not have some emotional issues with.

But I'd never assume that someones colour/origin would be something they have any uncomfortable feelings about - it would be insulting to think that they would feel that.

Trills · 05/10/2011 14:54

I think if someone's easy-to-describe feature is being 20 stone then it is difficult because there is a sort of unspoken agreement that being obese is a bad thing so you are saying something nasty about someone if you say "the fat woman". That's why it's uncomfortable, because you are worried that it will sound like an insult rather than a descriptor.

It comes down to this, I think. There's nothing wrong with being/having X so why would I mind being referred to as the person who is/has X?

If someone thinks it is X-ist to describe someone as being or having X then it must be because they think that being/having X is a bad thing.

(thinking out loud here, please feel free to contradict)

Tianc · 05/10/2011 14:59

Ooh yes, thinking about a birthmark is interesting.

Is there a difference between:
a) "The one with the birth mark"
and
b) "She has a birth mark"?

Actually I think so.

(b) is a transient visual description. (a) makes the birthmark a label, a distinguishing factor of that person's identity, for ever "the one who..."

Ditto for "fat". Would be people be happy to have "the fat one" as an identity, or is it a temporary state not expressing any important factor of who you are?

Tianc · 05/10/2011 15:00

Or what AMumInScotland said.

nickelbabe · 05/10/2011 15:01

It's a shame that some people don't understand what the word Racist means.
You can't possibly be meaning offence by describing someone by the one thing that sets them apart from the other people in that job (in that place).

If two people were the same in that area, say there were two black women, then what use would it have been to say "the black woman"? But if one were tall and one short, then using "tall" as the description is right.
if there were two tall women and two short women, one of each was black and the otherwhite, then it would make no sense to say "the tall one" because you're describing 2 people. Then what, would yo uhave to say "the tall one with black curly hair" "the tall one with any other distinguishing features"?
It's most likely that a black woman will have black hair, brown eyes etc, so nothing else that you could take out of her description that would immediately stick out!

Ps. My DH is 50, and obviously has never had to wonder/worry about colour descriptions because I was talking about someone the other day, who I described as black (because he didn't know who I was talking about, and he happened to be the only person in this particular situation who was black), and he honestly thought Coloured was still the correct term. He thought I was being rude by saying black. (bless him)

nickelbabe · 05/10/2011 15:02

Tianc - yy.

limitedperiodonly · 05/10/2011 15:10

Another one for a calm letter of complaint.

The HV's job is not to intimidate you but to encourage you to come to the clinic for help. Her attitude is potentially dangerous.

I really do think this needs pointing out to her manager.

Insomnia11 · 05/10/2011 15:15

I think the only thing that might offend someone in the context described by the OP is that it may imply white is normal so being 'black' is a distinguishing feature.

As you wouldn't normally say "the tall white lady" but perhaps "the tall lady with the blonde hair" or something.

But I don't want to be accused of being offended on behalf of others...

I think the HV was VU to reprimand the OP in such a way anyway. It wasn't like she was being intentionally offensive.

WinterIsComing · 05/10/2011 15:18

"The ink is black; the page is white"

That was a lovely song in its day (70's) and I liked the bit about how even a child could / should understand that equality was LAW.

minimisschief · 05/10/2011 15:21

some people really need to get a grip. she is a black woman. nothing offensive about it.

if anything it is racist to make out that it is wrong to be black by trying to avoid the description of their skin colour (not sure if anyone will understand what i am trying to say there)

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