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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that it's not racist to describe someone who is black as being black.

179 replies

lovingthecoast · 05/10/2011 12:50

Sorry, probably haven't worded that very well but I'm feeling a bit upset and shaky after virtually being accused of racism.

Just took DS2 (3wks) to clinic. It's a large clinic with a few HVs and nursery nurses helping. I had had a conversation with one of the ladies last week and brought up said conversation today. HV asked who I'd spoken to and I said 'sorry I can't remember her name but the tall, black lady.' HV practically gasped, looked at her helper then said to me, 'We'd rather not describe people in terms of their ethnicity as it's considered rather offensive.' She was then frosty with me for the rest of the time.

I'm quite gobsmacked for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I was giving a physical description of the woman so to me, saying she was black was just like saying she had blonde curly hair or something. Secondly, is it really considered racist to make mention of someone's skin colour? I wasn't implying she was somehow inferior (in fact she was very helpful, more so that this HV) I was merely describing her so they'd know who I was talking about. If 3 of the 4 HVs were black and I wanted to point out the white one, I'd say the white one. Confused

I know I'm hormonal but it's shaken me and since Ive come home I'm starting to feel angry about it and a bit teary. Oh I don't know, it's made me doubt my use of language even though I didn't think I was attaching anything to the colour of her skin if that makes sense.
Talk to me please and tell me straight whether she was being UR or whether I need to look at my language a bit more. Thanks

OP posts:
Original poster
lovingthecoast · 05/10/2011 13:38

thefirstmrsdevere, your last line has made me laugh! Do they close their eyes and imagine he is white as that better fits their idea of a nice, polite family man! Shock Grin Some people seem to have no idea of the rubbish that comes out their mouth.

OP posts:
ApocalypseCheeseToastie · 05/10/2011 13:39

I must be racist then, everyone barring the receptionist and 1 nurse in our doctors is black / asian.

I have described the nurse as the white one.

I am both racist and a twat it seems. Wink

AMumInScotland · 05/10/2011 13:41

I think I've seen footage of a boxing match in the 70s where the commentators are struggling to refer to one of them as "the taller man" etc rather than mention the fact that one was black and the other white.

I guess it's good that people think about how they describe other people, but it's just stupid to try to pretend skin colour etc don't exist - people are different colours. There's nothing wrong in being open about that, it only suggests there's something "wrong" about a person being black if you can't bring yourself to use the word.

Anyway "black" is way easier than some - I would hesitate to describe someone as Indian, because there are a number of countries they might come from and have similar colouring and features. But if you are vague and say Asian then that includes places like China too, which may not help to pick out the specific person you mean. I've ended up with "Maybe from India or somewhere round there?", but then worry because actually the person may be from Glasgow....

youarekidding · 05/10/2011 13:43

mrsDV Or like one of those numpties who think it is a compliment to say 'we dont think of your OH as being black' and then expect some sort of prize for being so tolerant

You really do seem to come across all the daft fuckers in the world don't you? Angry

WestYorkshirePudding · 05/10/2011 13:46

Ephiny - My BIL is black and would not be offended by this, in fact he'd probably think it was beyond ridiculous!

thefirstMrsDeVere · 05/10/2011 13:46

I attract them. Wankermagnet - thats me. Must be my kind face.

Grin
LeCielEstBleu · 05/10/2011 13:47

YANBU. I passed a football match in the park at the weekend and noticed that the whole of the one team was black . DS(9) said "That's racist"Confused

gordyslovesheep · 05/10/2011 13:48

yes - because to think of him as black would be what ... ? I hate that whole 'we don;t see colour' shite

I work in a massivley PC environment (I have no issue with most supposedly PC stuff - t's just about being respectful) and the term Black or BEM - perfectly acceptable

the HV is stupid and probably misread the PC handbook ;)

youarekidding · 05/10/2011 13:48

wankermagnet Grin

YoFluffy · 05/10/2011 13:49

How completely ridiculous! It's straight from the Little Britain sketch where the university receptionist is trying to describe a Chinese / fat / black and variety of other students without referring to the obvious descriptor.

I'd be describing your HV as the "thick one" in future, but then I guess that's definitely not pc... ("intellectually challenged" ??)

You are DEFINITELY not being unreasonable !

Trills · 05/10/2011 13:50

It's also not sexist to describe someone as a man or a woman.

MamaMary · 05/10/2011 13:50

What a stupid and annoying HV. Poor you, 3-week old baby, of course you're going to be feeling sensitive atm. HV was totally out of order to make that (entirely ridiculous) remark.

FreckledLeopard · 05/10/2011 13:51

YANBU. Totally weird HV who is clearly unhinged.
To make you feel better, let me share with you my mortifyingly embarrassing story.....

At work, in a new department. Mentioned a friend of mine to my boss who was in same department, sharing an office. "Who does she share the office with?" asked the boss. Could I think of the woman's name...no. I tried the usual 'brownish, curly hair'...'medium height'...'pretty'. He still looked blank. So, then, all I could manage to think of was to say 'the woman with one arm. As the words left my mouth I wanted to ground to open and swallow me up. Aagghh.

Tianc · 05/10/2011 13:52

Back in the balmy days of the New South Africa, there was a fashion among whites for referring to black people as "non-swimmers" in order to "not be racialist".

Leading to such gems as "And the non-swimmer on the till said to me..." Shock

So my shibboleth is: "Why does the speaker feel the need to communicate this person's ethnicity?" The answer to that tells you what you need to know.

BoffinMum · 05/10/2011 13:53

Daft
Totally daft
YANBU
It's like saying someone is male or female
She probably expects you to do a Dimbleby and say everything else about the person other than whether they are white, black or Asian.
What would she have done if you said "Minority Ethnic woman"????? Wink

edam · 05/10/2011 13:55

Glad you are feeling a bit better. HV is a numpty - heaven preserve us from people who have 'been on a course' and get the wrong end of the stick! But I agree a letter to the practice would be in order - it really is Not On At All to go around wrongly accusing patients of racism or to cause distress to someone who is vulnerable (and new mothers are easily upset what with lack of sleep and overwhelmingness of caring for a brand new human being).

Agree that people who are embarrassed and go all around the houses desperately trying not to mention skin colour when it is relevant as a physical descriptor are the ones with issues. It makes it a far bigger deal than it is.

And, tbh, even if you were racist (which you are not) it'd be none of her business. It is not the role of an HV to educate her clients in diversity issues. It's her job to support you to care for your child and to monitor the health of your child. Patients are the general population, they will include people with a range of opinions and beliefs including some unpleasant ones - that should NOT affect the care they receive from health professionals. (Unless you have someone who refuses to allow a Black nurse into their home. when it does get difficult.)

MissMap · 05/10/2011 13:58

YANBU the health visitor is obviously not very bright and has misunderstood her etnic diversity training course.

I mentioned this to one my SiL, who incidentally describes herself as black because she is black, and she feels that the HV is herself racist as she must believe that to be labelled black is an insult.

This HV needs to be corrected. I am sorry you were upset.

Spero · 05/10/2011 14:00

This is interesting and I think has a pretty long history. Does anyone else remember the famed episode of Question Time when Robin Day was trying to pick a man out of the audience to answer a question and was desparate not to refer to him as 'the black man' ?? He started off saying 'the man in the green jumper! The man in the green jumper next to the man in the red jumper!' or similar.

As I think the man in question was one of only a handful of not white persons in audience, it would have been much simpler just to have identified his skin colour as his distinguishing feature - but clearly even then it was taboo to refer to someone as 'black'

I don't know whether it also stems from other sensitivities? I also remember a fashion from a while back of describing everyone who was dark than cafe au lait as 'black' and one very offended Indian man (again on Question Time) stood up to say he didn't like this at all as he didn't think he was 'black'.

I think it is a very interesting example of the law of unintended consequences and how we can tie ourselves up in all sorts of knots with the best of intentions.

I think MrsDV and Tianc are spot on.

I feel unease at describing people as 'black' but I am trying to train myself out of it because if all I am doing is trying to describe someone in the most efficient way possible I do not agree that this can ever be racist, unless I was trying to tie in skin colour with some other characteristic and suggesting the two were linked.

I agree you should write and complain.

CamperFan · 05/10/2011 14:01

I am glad you feel better as YANBU. The HV is wrong - surely it is not offensive to "describe people in terms of their ethnicity"? Define, abuse on the basis of, but not describe. I would not be offended at all if people described me by my ethnicity under such circumstances.

BoffinMum · 05/10/2011 14:02

"We'd rather not describe people in terms of their ethnicity as it's considered rather offensive"

Interesting the rhetoric here. "WE" - Who actually is "we"? Her and who else? Society as a whole? Clinic?

"Considered" in passive tense, conveniently invoking the idea that this is a general social view and can't be refuted because the listener can't challenge the supposed origin of the viewpoint - By whom? Her, other people, BME people? Has she actually asked anyone whether this is in fact the case?

She has been very patronising, and a worse offence in my view, a lazy thinker who has caused a load of trouble and hurt as a consequence.

thefirstMrsDeVere · 05/10/2011 14:05

Wot boffin said

Chundle · 05/10/2011 14:05

Yanbu! The black HV would not have been offended I'm sure!

madmomma · 05/10/2011 14:06

YANBU at all. The HV is clearly a tit, with nothing better to do than pick at people.

Sarahplane · 05/10/2011 14:10

Your health visitor is clearly an idiot. It's not racist, you were describing what she looks like.

TattyDevine · 05/10/2011 14:10

You've beaten me to it Boffin and other's, basically what annoys me most, is that she felt the need to dress you down or educate you about it. The fact that she is actually wrong and has misinterpreted what racism actually is, is almost irrelevant.

If I want to stand in front of my HV asking her a question, and decide to pick my nose whilst I am doing it, and she says "actually we prefer not to pick our nose here, because its unhygeinc and impolite", I would reply with "you do what you want my sweet, however I have an absolute ripper up here and my finger is just itching to fish it out. As you were"...