to feel like the four year old stage is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY harder than the "terrible twos" ?

[CheerfulYank]

I just am really at my wit's end!

I posted a little bit ago about my son's constant arguing. I just hate it, my mom and brother had a terrible relationship and I don't want things to be like that; I don't want the kind of tension I grew up with in my home. And DS is only 4! And I work with children who have behavior issues! I feel like I should be able to handle things better.

DS came home from preschool and was eating his lunch. (I was home from work because of a migraine :( ) He finished his lunch and I asked him to throw his sandwich crusts into the dog's bowl.

He refused "because I'll get my hands dirty!" (There was applesauce on the crusts, he's a messy eater :) ) I said well then you can wash them.

He refused again. I said "do what I asked you please." He started hopping up and down and screeching. I said "go upstairs until you're ready to do what I asked."

He ran up the stairs and stopped to yell down "I want my license!" (He has one of DH's old driver's licenses that he likes to play with.) I said that he could have it after he had put his plate away like I'd asked.

He ran downstairs screeching and tried to grab it anyway. I told him no firmly and said I would take it away. He picked it up and glared at me, I took it away and said he couldn't have it.

He grabbed his plate and went to dump it out into the dog's bowl. I told him to pick the crusts up with his fingers but he didn't want to; he dumped the whole plate over and got applesauce all over his foot. Cue screaming.

Sigh...I almost feel like I should namechange for this, it sounds so stupid when I write it down. But it is really hard because I feel like he's always in trouble for something, and I hate that! And when I've to ignore most behavior he slides more into outright defiance, etc.

Ugh! AIBU to just want to hide under a blanket all day? It;s not that I think things like this are terribly out of the ordinary, it's just that there are so many incidents every day and it's really wearing.

As far as the dirty-hands things goes, I'm beginning to think that he may be more sensitive than some to things like that. DH hates anything dirty or slimy on his hands and washed them constantly, and I think DS may have some of that too. He doesn't mind actual dirt and is okay with fingerpaint, but other slimy/sticky things he doesn't like. So in the future I will help him or tell him to use his spoon to fling them off or something.

But the whole refusal to do things, the arguing, the backtalk...it just feels constant and it's really hard. And on top of that DH is gone on a business trip for three days. Ugh.

Help!

"Do you think the surge of testosterone thing could be why he's so bloodthirsty lately? All of his games recently have involved swords and "bad guys" and evil robots and tying people up."
Yes you got it. It's nature v nurture.
My boys were never going to be allowed to play with pseudo military toys. I wouldn't even let them wear combat trousers. When they got to four they would use the plastic food from the toy kitchen as weapons. .

Yes, and they get more bloodthirsty as well. My gentle sweet natured 13 year year old's favourite reading /movie genre is Zombie apocalypse stuff.

How I thank you for this thread. I went from hippy earth mother to a screaming banshee from when DS was about 2.5!! Although nothing topped 4.5 when I was so close to packing him off to his dads. Could NOT cope with the constant whinging/arguing/ battles. And it was only with me, everyone else thought he was a pleasure GRRR. I thought I was a truly shit parent. Fucking fours indeed :o

A reward chart has done wonders as well as a typed sheet of all things he has expected to do, it has also given me a workable and easy-to-follow-through on threat. As well as helped me be able to recognise what he was actually doing right (I couldn't see it at the time).

At 5 he is SOOOOOOOOO much better/nicer with me. He had a slight set back 2 weeks ago and I did have a meltdown, but it seems to have resolved quickly. Phew.

joshop - the new baby is always less stressful than the the older sibling, whatever the age gap. That's because you know how to deal with a baby having had that steep learning curve with your first baby. Whereas your older child whether 2,3 or 4 is growing through unfamiliar territory.

It was the 4 year old's horrid whiiiiiiiiiney voice that got me the most.

I think it's easier to deal with the younger one because at 2, to me, they are still a baby. And you can't really get cross with a baby because there's no (or much less) intent behind the unwanted behaviour. It is a normal 4 yo thing to push boundaries but when you know they're capable of behaving it's really frustrating when they don't.

i have skimmed through most of this and i feel sooooo much better thats its not just me!
my DD was 5 in july and we still have the constant arguing/shouting/"it's not fair"/etc etc
the slightest thing sets her off, despite knowing in advance whats going to happen. everything is unfair/a battle/not what she wants. its so endless im wondering when it will stop.

e.g - me: "DD, I'm serving up dinner in a minute so you will have to turn TV off and come through"
DD: "OK mum"

sounds alright so far?
but when dinner IS dished up and she needs to turn TV off...

   me:"come on then-your dinner is ready now. I did say TV would have to go off when it was ready"
   DD:"NOOO! I'M WATCHING THIS. I'LL COME IN WHEN IT'S FINISHED"
   me:"no, I said to come through now-  I did say before so it wasn't a surprise"
   DD:"I DON'T WANT IT. I'M NOT HUNGRY. I WANT TO WATCH THIS."

you get the idea i'm sure. cue much pouting and arms crossed at the table and grunted answers. she is 5. i thought it would have stopped by now.

Oh God. I thought it was just me. DD has just started school. Just turned 4. Has been increasing nightmare since 2.5 or so. Agree with so many posters - the backchat is unbelieveable. And the door slamming is a fairly new one. If I say its black, she says its white. If I say do something, she doesn't. If I say don't do something, she does. Favourite phrases of hers (after "No") are "You're not my friend any more", "I want Daddy", "Daddy is my best friend", "You're not my best friend". Then Daddy appears, backs me up (most of the time, thankfully) soon followed by "I'm not your friend Daddy", " I want Mummy".

Feel like totally shit parent. Am conscious of being the shouty mum and shrieking "Will you come ON" ALL they way to school (DD either runs ahead or walks slower than the the average snail). I am turning into my mother, with horrifies me - she used to screech at me for the slightest thing without warning.

I do try to make time and do activities at the weekend (craft n stuff), which she loves, and constantly beat myself up for not doing, but those distractors can't be used when we're late for school. Is it unreasonable for me to expect DD & I to get up, washed, dressed and breakfasted in 90 mins? I have to tell her to put on each item of clothing approximately 8 times before she does it. Yeah, I'm probably fighting the wrong battles too like CY, but behaviour is a big thing for me and & DH and its going pear shaped. We have a sticker chart, but I'm going to review it. It worked for a while, but doesn't now. I'm all for rewarding good behaviour but when there is precious little good behaviour, it makes it all a bit pointless.

I'm also crap at time out/naughty step. I think we're doing it wrong cos it has never acheived anything, even though I believe in it.

But of course no one believes DH & I about what she's like. Nursery thought she was lovely and kind. MIL thinks the sun shines out of her , but then DD has MIL wrapped so far around her little finger that I have to seriously question who is the adult in the room.

Sorry. Just realised I'm ranting. Again. Please tell me it gets better or is it all downhill to the teens?

I think my "do less" approach may be working.... This last week has been lots better, and I really think its because I am ignoring a lot of the backchat.
Just completely. When I do respond, it's when it strays into rudeness, and then I am just icy frikkin cold.
The other day coming back from school he started with the whining/complaining/ refusing to walk. I stood and let the gentle breeze fan my face, and went somewhere else in my mind, said nothing...then he got rude, and I turned to him and in a low voice said Do Not Speak To Your Mother Like That. Ever.
And he stopped.

It could just be coincidence, and he will find other ways to torment me, but I think maybe the fact that he is getting LESS reaction from me, is working.
Plus I have been trying to give lots of praise e.g " you washed your hands as soon as I asked! Thats great, really proud of you!"
It seems really over the top, but when I do it his little face lights up, and I think Hmmm, maybe he is not the Antichrist after all.Maybe.

But please, rant way Dont Nick!

I thought my ds must be so strange, but it turns out he is exactly like all your 4.5s! Reading this thread is all 'yes! mine too'

The other week he was really rude, and then refused to go to his room. I was so frustrated. I never know if anything is really sinking in. But other times he is so lovely. Then he will only speak nonsense words, or use his favorite vaguely rude 'bewt' in every sentence. 'I would like some bewt please.' argh.

And oh yes the disagreeing with everything, or demanding the other parent. Oy.

So glad to read this!!! Most days DS is fab but he is boisterous, loud, shoots everything, stabs toys with plastic carrots, plagues his two year old sister and whips his penis or bum at at any given opportunity!!!!

Every conversation revolves anround poo and wee and his sister now copies him so she is two but learning from him how to be four!!! Terrible twos with first born??? Nothing, easy!!

Terrible fours in a four year old bad enough! Terrible fours in a four year old with a copycat two year old???? Please, take me outside, shoot me and let the seagulls do their worst!

I am so happy I started this thread. Y'all have made me feel so much better! :)

Of course today he has been lovely. And funny. He said "when I grow up and am a man, I will be a mountain climber! And I will use real ropes! And I will help the mama mountain goats rescue their babies!" :o I told him that was a lovely idea and he should definitely do it...

Aww thats what its all about lovely things like that. I know the problems dont vanish but when they are being lovely it melts your heart

Awww CY, that's lovely! :)

Dontnick 'We have a sticker chart, but I'm going to review it. It worked for a while, but doesn't now. I'm all for rewarding good behaviour but when there is precious little good behaviour, it makes it all a bit pointless.'

I do it so stickers go on for good behaviour and come off for bad behaviour. So in the first couple of weeks I did 'reward' him with a sticker for every slightest good thing, to give him the gist of it and to actually start remembering to praise him. But I also removed them for every thing he didn't do as I asked, or for rudeness, back chat etc. He hated losing stickers so it has worked relatively well. For 20 stickers, he gets a chocoloate, for 50 a magazine, 80 a day out like the play centre. It sounds militant, but then my DS seems to command that! Is much happier with strong boundaries in place. I would have preferred to mother in a more relaxed fashion, but he just goes pair shaped :(

I also find the count 1-5 works well, with follow through on the naughty spot. He HATES that!

Thank you for this thread. I am so sick of seeing well behaved children and honestly thought it was just mine
Currently DS is having meltdowns over the most bizarre things. Not tantrums, real sobbing. I parked in the wrong place the other day.
And because autumn had turned back to summer.
Then yesterday because a lollipop was the wrong colour

My DS who is 5 is exactly like this and my almost 2 yo DD seems to have started terrible twos early and is copying her big brother. I feel like I'm loosing my marbles!!!! So glad its not just me. DS is quite immature, and has only just got into dinosaurs/pirates/superheros etc now so I am thinking he is having his 4 yo horrible phase late as well. My mum doesn't help, just keeps saying "I wonder why your children are so difficult?!" I find I just don't have the bloody energy to deal with the both of them

Oh no! This thread has ruined my day. I'm finding DS1 really challenging already and he's about to turn 4. I was so hoping that things would improve, but it sounds as if they're about to get worse

So glad to see this thread. Ds is 4.11 and exactly like this.

My main issue is that he tries to control everything! He tries to tell me not to eat certain items on my plate, not to breathe 'that way', he tells me what to say. He shouts 'you will aways do what I want not what you want'. He doesn't listen to no, so much so that sometimes when he's doing something I'm not happy about choose to say nothing, as he is more likely to stop it sooner then than if I ask him to stop.

a little spot of encouragement...
I was warned that the 'git-like-threes' were worse than the terrible twos, but when my dd1 hit 4, she was unbelievable. Answering back, physical, kicking doors, whiney whingey moany, emotional outbursts all the time, major dramas...I really strugled, to the point where I had help from the school's parent support worker. She was amazing. Anyway, it wasn't a short phase, and I don't remember it ending as such, but last year I suddenly though, "she's 6 and she's lovely!" It does end! She's 7 now and so much more grown up and able to reason things through. Of course she's a child and has her moments, but we are so far from where we were 2-3 years ago.
And it's had the added benefit of helping me keep dd2's terrible 2s in perspective! It seems like a poor effort at a tantrum compared to what dd1 was producing .
I found the book "how to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk" quite helpful in terms of practical advice on how to aviod or escape the things which turn into battles.

Yes, that book 'how to talk to kids so they listen' is brilliant. We borrowed it from the library and it really really helped. To the degree that at the end of a tantrum ds snuggled me and told me he loved me. Instead of hating me. I should buy it, once I returned it to the library I slowly forgot all it's advice.

ds is currently rolling around on the floor yelling because I've asked him to flush the loo after using it. He claims he is too tired .

:o Who hasn't been there?

I get 'too tired' a lot off dd too. Too tired to tidy up but not too tired to make a load more mess! She even asked me to carry her up the stairs to the loo the other day cos she was too tired. I told her I'd carry her up and then put her to bed for a sleep as she was so tired. Then she decided she could manage it after all

It's quite a relief to read this. DD is nearly 4 and has turned into a cheeky, bossy, obstinate little ratbag. Refuses to do anything she's told to do, won't stay in bed, shouts over the top of other people's conversations etc etc. As I type she is shouting that she needs to come back downstairs because only one of her slippers is in her room. Because of course she needs to wear them in bed. Good to know it's a four year old's thing and she's not just horrid in general.

Haha dd wears her Special Agent Oso slippers in bed and regularly wakes me when one has fallen off like I'm gonna get up in the middle of the night to look for a slipper!