to feel like the four year old stage is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY harder than the "terrible twos" ?

[CheerfulYank]

I just am really at my wit's end!

I posted a little bit ago about my son's constant arguing. I just hate it, my mom and brother had a terrible relationship and I don't want things to be like that; I don't want the kind of tension I grew up with in my home. And DS is only 4! And I work with children who have behavior issues! I feel like I should be able to handle things better.

DS came home from preschool and was eating his lunch. (I was home from work because of a migraine :( ) He finished his lunch and I asked him to throw his sandwich crusts into the dog's bowl.

He refused "because I'll get my hands dirty!" (There was applesauce on the crusts, he's a messy eater :) ) I said well then you can wash them.

He refused again. I said "do what I asked you please." He started hopping up and down and screeching. I said "go upstairs until you're ready to do what I asked."

He ran up the stairs and stopped to yell down "I want my license!" (He has one of DH's old driver's licenses that he likes to play with.) I said that he could have it after he had put his plate away like I'd asked.

He ran downstairs screeching and tried to grab it anyway. I told him no firmly and said I would take it away. He picked it up and glared at me, I took it away and said he couldn't have it.

He grabbed his plate and went to dump it out into the dog's bowl. I told him to pick the crusts up with his fingers but he didn't want to; he dumped the whole plate over and got applesauce all over his foot. Cue screaming.

Sigh...I almost feel like I should namechange for this, it sounds so stupid when I write it down. But it is really hard because I feel like he's always in trouble for something, and I hate that! And when I've to ignore most behavior he slides more into outright defiance, etc.

Ugh! AIBU to just want to hide under a blanket all day? It;s not that I think things like this are terribly out of the ordinary, it's just that there are so many incidents every day and it's really wearing.

As far as the dirty-hands things goes, I'm beginning to think that he may be more sensitive than some to things like that. DH hates anything dirty or slimy on his hands and washed them constantly, and I think DS may have some of that too. He doesn't mind actual dirt and is okay with fingerpaint, but other slimy/sticky things he doesn't like. So in the future I will help him or tell him to use his spoon to fling them off or something.

But the whole refusal to do things, the arguing, the backtalk...it just feels constant and it's really hard. And on top of that DH is gone on a business trip for three days. Ugh.

Help!

I've found that I can often dispell a tantrum with humour. That doesn't mean that he doesn't have to do what I ask him to, but if I find that if we are beginning to lock horns and I can do something that he finds disarming, e.g. slight change of tone of voice or put on an exaggerated face of some sort, he is usually very willing to latch on to that. He'll start to giggle and then ends up doing what I asked him to do, but now with a smile on his face.

I have also found that making a game of things, as in " ok lets make two piles of the lego . I bet I can put away my pile fastest" helps.
Sometimes though, you just feel like shouting "because I said so!"
As my neighbours can attest to.
But yeah, I am glad it's not just mine who is bloodthirsty. I was worrying I was raising a mini Jeffrey Dahmer...

DS shoots aliens and monsters "dead" all the way when we walk to school in the morning, pretending he's a knight, Spiderman, Ironman and Buzz Lightyear all rolled into one. He's told me he wants a "light saver" for Christmas .

Mine calls them "light savers" too! :)

i don't buy the testosterone thing - nor am i a Biddulph (?) fan

I do find 3 and 4 harder than 2 ....

I find just being firm firm firm but fair...

ie tonights tantrum over the 'orange bits' on the fruit salad ..me 'i thought you loved peaches?' him 'noooo don't want orange ones don't want it' me removes bowl with sweet voiced' that's fine love if you dont want it you don't have to have pudding' him 'nooooooo' gets one last chance and eats it

Don't always go THAT well but i am v old hat and you have to just keep one step ahead and 'pull' the adult card a lot!

If won't put shoes on at school run time i am quite likely these days to say 'fine get cold feet' i may bag the shoes but only unbeknown to ds...if he eventually kicks off so much about not having them on - when we are on the way i will then ensure mini lecture takes place -' remember you didn't want them? remember you screamed?Do you want them now? ' make him ask for them etc

All sounds long winded but a wee bit of 'reining in' as my friend puts it and being quite short and clipped for a week - really does pay dividends

I feel so much better reading this, my DD4, usually pretty ok bit my arm on Monday

Oooh, me, me, me too!!!! My 4 1/2 year old is only just starting to settle down ever so slightly. At 4 he just turned into this backchatting, argumentative rude creature, who is pushing every boundary!

I give the count of 5 for him to do/stop doing what I ask and either he doesn't or at 4 1/2 seconds he started to do it in exactly the way he shouldn't (and KNOWS he shouldn't!).

I also have a 2 year old who is far more difficult at 2 then DS1 was - I shudder to think what he will be like at 4 .

No advice from me; only sympathy. DD is 4 and I am finding it...challenging.

Hi CheerfulYank. Not read all 6 pages! but wanted to give my thoughts on just your OP.

"He finished his lunch and I asked him to throw his sandwich crusts into the dog's bowl. He refused "because I'll get my hands dirty!"*

*Here, I would have said "Not if you tip your plate into the bowl. Want me to show you? It's a cool trick. Wonder if you can do it without dropping any".

"I said well then you can wash them." He refused again. I said "do what I asked you please." He started hopping up and down and screeching. I said "go upstairs until you're ready to do what I asked."*

*You have backed both of you into corners. What has started as a simple request to empty crusts has turned into him having to go upstairs??

You had two choices. You could have chosen not to make a battle of it and said "I'm asking you to do something but you won't do it. I'm disappointed about that. Look, you don't even have to touch the crusts or the bowl". Then left it alone and tipped the crusts in yourself.

Or you could have pursued it. If you showed him how to tip the crusts without touching them and he refused to cooperate, or you tried to show him and he refused to look, THEN I would say "If you want to do XX (play with licence for example) you need to tip the crusts in. Otherwise, no licence.

Pick your battles!! Were the crusts thing really essential or could you have let it go with a comment? Do you think your actions taught your DS anything?

I think it sounds like you get too involved and escalate issues because you are probably tired and annoyed yourself. If you read back your post can you not see that? You should stick to the request you have made and only make the conversation about that. Being sent to room etc was harsh, he hadn't done anything deliberately wrong.

I want to add that although this seems critical it's not meant to be, well, maybe constructive critisism just to illustrate how to avoid backing into corner.

DS1 turned 6, today. It doesn't get any better. I do have a plan though. Maritime college takes them at 16. Boarding. Then they go away to sea.

Thanks for your input Sleepy. :)

No, it probably was not essential, I was just using it as an example of how everything lately is a battle, even when I try not to make it into one.

If I ask him to do something and he doesn't, I've let it go in the past. Then it becomes sort of a game with him repeating "I'm not going to do x, I didn't do it, I didn't do it!"

It isn't so much the crusts requests as it is an expectation for him to do as he's asked. I don't expect him to obey immediately without question like he's in the army or something :) but for the most part I would like him to listen and do as we say.

Hermione :o

I've read Raising Boys and I am sure it is great in many respects (positive male role models, encouragement to take responsibility and lots of hearty outdoorsy stuff) but there's a heavy strand that says [and yes I paraphrase gratuitously] as his mother all you can do is teach him some housework and have a nice chat about his day when you're cooking or washing up together.

I take on board the bit about "sideways conversations" being better for drawing (some) boys out, but for crying out loud is that ALL I can do? Is that the sum total of my impact on this child for all those screaming comforting negotiating years that he'll be able to see his own pants through the wash?

And please parents of teenagers for pity's sake don't tell me even that is a hopeless dream....

I latched on to a logo from a t.v. documentary about disturbed kids and so i thought I'd give it a go as my daughter was leading me a merry dance at four and I was reacting big time and she was getting my attention etc. for bad behaviour yet I was in a corner.

The logo that seriously changed my life was ..: "Ignore the undesirable and praise the desirable!".
*She got oodles of praise and explanation why she was being praised for being helpful, kind , leaving on her coat etc.

*I began to talk about how I was feeling too and she did and it grew from there.

She'd question then : "Does this make you feel more relaxed? Have I helped?".

My four year old is seventeen now and I find myself all emotional tonight as I recall her at four!

I still use that logo and I fondly pass it on to busy headed Mums with love and much hope as it truly works!

But there comes a time when you can NOT "ignore the undesirable", as the child is trashing the house, pulling the curtain poles off someone else's wall (to use and example from another thread) - boundaries need to be set! it's up to each parent where the boundaries are set, but they need to happen and to be as consistent as possible.

One of the problems I had with my own mum (which I now understand better ) was her inconsistent response - so one day we could get away with playing a noisy game, but another day she'd shout at us within seconds. Difficult to work out what's ok to do, if it changes from day to day.

Anyway - that's an aside.

I have my own problems in that DH often acts like an unruly teen as well - this is NOT behaviour I wish him to model for DS - so he ends up being "told off" as well. Not good, not really appropriate (I don't want to be his mother, FFS!) but necessary to maintain consistency or DS will get the wrong idea.

SleepySpaniel - I'm not sure I agree that CY's DS "hadn't really done anything wrong" - on its own, perhaps not - but as an example of ongoing defiance and refusal to do as he's asked all the time, it was another instance of bad behaviour. So yes, he had done something wrong.

Yes Thumb I agree...it is the constant defiance that's the issue, not the crusts! :)

Having just spent the morning at the play area having to rein DS (4 in 2 months) in every 2 minutes (or at least it felt like that) - it's so nice to know that others are going through the same. It's driving me to distraction. And the answering back - just argh! Coupled with a non sleeping, teething 7 month old, it's enough to make me scream!

I have a 3.10 yr old (who can drive me crazy) and I find structure huge. Spending time with her one to one doesn't come naturally to me - short term I'd rather be MNing but then I have pangs of guilt later. My answer is to activity plan in the same way that I would meal plan. Whenever I can I google for craft ideas or browse www.pinterest.com for inspiration. She likes simple board games and that means I HAVE to involve myself. INvest in some new toys but hide them and then when you know your afternoon might go pear shaped bring one out. I also use the colouring pages off the internet form her favourite tv shows etc. I wonder, seeing as there are so many of us whether we could change this thread into an idea provoker to inspire us to keep these mad 4 yr olds happy!

I use time out a lot and as SOON as the bad event has happened. We have a one saturday morning a month just her and I (I also have DS 2yrs and am due dc3 in a month). She gets to choose the activity and then we plan it meticulously in the week running up to it - which cafe, what cake, what drink etc - she revels in the fact that it is just her and I and it doesn't always go to plan (her playing up etc) but most of the time it pays off.

So I will throw a few ideas into the mix

www.activityvillage.co.uk/paper-plate-stegosaurus.

www.activityvillage.co.uk/free_printables.htm

www.google.com/search?q=paper+plate+lion&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&biw=1280&bih=587&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=AkaNTtGuIsmJrAe5-dmdAQ&sqi=2&ved=0CCwQsAQ

this blog is quite good

www.amommysadventures.com/2009/12/start-rudolphs-first-christmas.html

get some googly eyes for some of the above things - rethink craft supplies. pipe cleaners, google christmas decorations for kids to make.

I don't have the patience for baking very often but I buy ready made mini muffins and then make a batch of icing and have lots of varying sprinkles and decorations so she can ice and decorate her own.

We don't have a garden but their own little patch might be a good idea. Large beads and elastic for threading necklaces.

Slice up bagels and turn into pizza. Has anyone got any other food ideas? I am a bit low for inspiration there!

Basically you need to arm yourself. I try and do an hour (it's not easy) one on one whilst my son naps. Then she usually gets to watch some tv and then the park etc It is relentless, we just have to pre predict and be ahead of the game. Hope that helps!

Wow - that was long! Hope the ideas inspire though!

I have found three much harder than two. My DS was such a sweetie at two! So I truely sympathise. I think I have found the relentless noise the hardest thing. But he is such good fun and so funny! I did have high hopes for four...

my ds2 whos 4 is a devil angel ;) but then again he has sn :)

Sedatives - I could have written your post! 4yo DD going on 14.. Talk about early puberty!

Despite the trite 'case studies' (which always work out perfectly ) I have found the book 'How to talk so kids will listen' has some useful tips and this has helped (although not completely stopped) some of the worst whinging and our worst tempers (and yes, I do mean 'our' - even though I try so hard to be Lovely Patient Lead-by-Example Mummy). It might be worth a look..

DH and I were thinking the same thing about DS1 when he was 3 - he seemed quite sweet when he was 2! 4 is even worse but I'm sure not helped by the arrival of baby bro (to whom he hasn't shown his unpleasant side at all, to his credit) and starting school this Sep.

He turned 4 in Aug and was preterm so shouldn't really be at school this year but I have to admit it's a relief to drop him off at the moment.

Nights are bad too. Besides what seems like round the clock breast feeding, DS1 has starting coming into my bed (DH banished to spare room so at least one of us gets some sleep) at around 4 am. I don't want to turn him away because I'm worried he'll feel more rejected and all we seem to do during the day is argue.

I don't know about anyone else but new baby demands seem less stressful this time round, even with hardly any sleep, when compared to those of a 4-year old!

dd (age 4) is going through a phase of being quite unkind to her brother (11). she won't give him kisses when he asks or share her toys willingly, but will with her other brothers. she can be quite bad tempered with him. He loves her so much, it's heartbreaking to see her upset him. I have told him not to tease her (he is a bit of a wind up merchant) and have also talked to her about being kind and not hurting peoples feelings, but she is only little and I'm not sure how much of it she grasps. Has anyone else got experience of this or any tips to help her behave more kindly towards him?

I still have a headache from shouting at my dd yesterday. She had a tantrum, and so did I.

I need some help, seriously... thanks for this thread OP