to ask my nanny to sleep in the lounge?

[LaLaLaLayla]

OK, a bit of background... we live in the gulf where there are no childminders or after-school care. School finishes at 1.30 pm. In situations where both parents have to work, the only viable option is to employ live-in help.

So, we are employing a girl from the Philipinnes and she arrives in the next week or so. We are currently living in a 2 bedroom apartment but plan to move to a small 3-bedroomed house within the next few months. We have a 6 year DS who has his own room. So, we don't have enough bedrooms for her to have her own room at the moment. It is only temporary, but still, I want her to be comfortable.

These are our options...

1. We could rent her a studio apartment somewhere, but public transport is limited and she doesn't drive.

1. We could turf our son out of his bedroom and put him in with us so she could have his room. I am reluctant to do this, as I can imagine there being a few problems when it is time to move him back into his own room.

1. She could sleep on some kind of put-you-up bed in the lounge and we would make it a rule to vacate the lounge by 10 pm every evening, say. She could use one of the cupboards in my DS room to keep her things. She would also have her own bathroom.

Now, I much prefer the third option, but is is not ideal as I think she needs her own space. So I was thinking of paying her 25% of her salary on top, as a kind of 'inconvenience payment'. This is about what we would have to pay for a studio flat anyway and I would rather give it to her. She is coming to work to support her family, so I imagine the extra cash would be handy.

But is it totally unreasonable to ask this of her? If I ask her, I know she will just give me the answer she thinks I want to hear. I would really welcome some views on this, as I don't know what to do.

Thanks.

I think it's exploitive too. My husband was out of work and had to seek employment abroad to be able to support his family. His new exployer paid to relocate his family and pays him enough to take care of them in the country where he is working. To do otherwise would be unthinkable.

I don't think these women would rather be in their own countries, living with their children, and watching them starve though. Or die because they can't pay for medical care for them.

So how do you propose making it possible for them to support themselves in their own countries? You can't fix that in the time it would take for their families to suffer irreparably.

Yes it is bloody tragic that they have to make that choice, but at least they can do something about it, at least there is work for them somewhere. And I think a person who has been well educated it able to make that decision for themselves.

PigletJohn - 25% of £800 pm by the sounds of it, if it's an extra £200 pm.

actually, dreamingbohemian thats not what exploitative means.

in context of this particular situation, the OP would be exploitative if she:

fired the maid for refusing to sleep where the OP told her to
refused to pay the maid a fair wage
hired the maid then didnt pay her what she was promised

these would be exploitative because the maid would have no choice but to do as she was told, and would have no recourse

by simply employing the woman in the first place, the OP is not being exploitative

and your comparison to the US is not usefull because in the US there is actually an option to hire americans. in america.

in the middle east, certainly places like dubai and qatar, there is NO OPTION but to hire women that are themselves, expatriats.

i do understand what you are trying to say, but unfair is not the same as exploitative.

Bride, as long as this system continues, there will be less pressure for national governments to improve conditions within their own countries.

The country I research the most, in Central Asia, is a dictatorship that exports most of its adult male labour force because the country is so poor. Now that many of them are having to stay home, because the global economy has tanked, it is more likely the government will have to institute political and economic reforms.

Long-term the only answer for the Philippines is economic development and improved human security. Is that more or less likely if some of its best and brightest are abroad cleaning houses and driving taxis?

In the meantime, of course I don't blame Filipinos for working abroad, and I don't really expect expats to stop hiring them. But that doesn't mean the system isn't exploitative. Let's at least be honest about it.

kladdaka The helpers wouldn't bring their families even if they could because it would put a big dent in their income. What they want is a HK wage which they spend in the Philippines where everything is way way cheaper.

eg A helper in HK on min wage gets paid more than a doctor living in Manila. The helper sends all the money back to the Philippines (less pocket money for herself- doesnt need much as employer provides board, food, transport, medical etc). If they brought their families with them, they'd have to live out, and that would totally change the economics of it.

Hi OP. i think you've made the right decision. Apart from the many human considerations, if you are in DXB, you are probably aware that to sponsor a domestic worker who then lives out can present problems with DNRD. Also, if your helper is new from the Phlippines and it's her first time in Dubai, I think it's better for all if she lives in. On her own in a room of some kind, she could be quite vulnerable.

Also to all those who want to have a go at the O P, most of you have little idea of the practical and legal options available in the Gulf. I would really hesitate about hourly childcare. These ladies are generally untrained and definitely unregulated - it's a world away from the UK system.

Bottle, I'm not saying the OP herself is exploiting her helper. I'm saying the overall system in which poor people have to be separated from their families and risk physical abuse, as the only means of providing for them, is exploitative.

I understand you can't hire locals in the Gulf. But as Kladdkaka notes, it's not like all the Western expats there are forced to live without their families for years or risk physical abuse from their employers -- why is it okay to treat the Filipino expats like this?

dreaming Re the reforms, I'll believe it when I see it I'm afraid. I am very cynical about progress towards every country in the world becoming a stable, economically sound democracy.

However, if it makes you feel any better, I think it's more likely that in 100 yrs time British people will be cleaning floors in manila than the other way round.

i would move your ds in with you and deal with fallout later. could make it exciting for him by letting him choose decorations for his new bedroom etc.

don't know why you're getting so much stick. i also suspect she might appreciate more money for the inconvenience, and it is a short-term solution.

you could wait a couple of weeks until she's settled in and ask her when you think she might give you an honest response.

? they arent forced to live without their families.

i know western expats who are working in the middle east and their families are still back in the UK for example because it makes financial sense to do so

oh, cross posted with thebride

Bride

I'm very cynical too. No way do I think the whole world will convert to democratic free markets! But gradual change is possible, i just think it's less likely to happen when a big portion of your population is abroad.

Bottle -- really? can their husbands and children get visas? Get jobs and free schooling? Can the whole family live in the spare room?

Practically speaking, yes, they have to leave their families. Not just because it makes financial sense, but because they cannot immigrate or get housing in the first place. I think that's very different from most Western expats.

interesting, i just googled, and apparently 10% of the british population lives abroad

lala -

Some on this thread are being ridiculously unhelpful to you and your staff.

Just because a woman living in the UK thinks that it is preferrable for a housekeeper to have her own room rather than share with a child for 2 months and get paid extra does not mean that they are right.

Sure, most brisitsh women would prefer their own provacy, how egocentric to assume all people of all races and backgrounds do or should think the same way!

To do the best by your helper you should offer her a choice of

1. her own room (your DSs room)

1. sharing ds room til you move with an inconvenience payment (making sure it is very clear the payment is only until you move) - the inconvenience payment should NOT be so high that she either feels you want her to take it or she feels forced to take it because it is worth so much to her family back home.

Deciding for her what you think is best for her (ie only offering her private room) is honestly the utmost arrogance, really it is - most people posting on this thread must have absolutely no idea what it's like for these helpers.

She knows you are a thoughtful employer (you didnt sack her when she couldnt accomodate your dates and as a result her child has gone to university), so give her the choice.

For those interested, there's a ruling currently under discussion in HK whereby helpers may become entitled to apply for permanent residency. That means that when they've been in HK for 7 years, they can apply for permanent right of abode. This is open to most temporary residents (expats)but up until now, helpers have been excluded.

Interestingly, most helpers are against it because it would mean they would probably have to do certain things like pay tax on their wages, which at the moment they are exempt from.

Look, I'm not trying to have a go at anyone who employs helpers. I understand it's the way things are. I just think it's sad it has to be that way and I (perhaps unrealistically) hope things improve throughout the world so people can stay home and still support their families.

dreaming - it seems to me that lala is actually the type of employer who is at the cutting edge of the kind of improvement you would like to see!!!

wait, yes of course they can. if you earn above a certain wage, you can bring your family with you (and the same sort of rule is true for ANY country with foreign workers including places like new zealand it is to ensure that people can support themselves). and yes, they can get visas etc. there is no free schooling in the ME for expats. everyone has to pay for it. and there may be some that have companies that pay, but they are in the minority. and there are maids that do have their families over, and they dont all live in one room no. the maid lives in, and goes to the family home on weekedns/ days off, much like many men who work in cities like london for example.

look, i really do understand what you are saying, but i find it difficult because NO ONE lives an ideal life. and i feel thats its somehow cheap of us to view others lives with such i dont know, pity, because they dont reflect what we think is the 'right way'.

im not articulating that quite right!

look, all im saying is that there are a million ways to live a life, and they all have value.

oh and again, on google, 11% of the phillipine population work overseas. so not that different to the uk? have no idea if these figures are ratified or anything, just off t'internet

dreaming I agree, and it's often hard to know whether you're part of the problem or part of the solution. If everyone went back to the Philippines and rioted then yes, change would probably be quicker, but to my helper, that's a terrible prospect because change would take too long to be in her interests- plus you don't always get a better government even when you've smashed the place up to get one. Her best life outcome is to have a good employer, stay in HK another 6 years or so, and then retire back to the Philippines (and hopefully not end up looking after her GCs while her sons repeat the pattern despite their Uni educations that she's paid for). All i can do is be that good employer.

I just think it's sad it has to be that way and I (perhaps unrealistically) hope things improve throughout the world so people can stay home and still support their families.

see, this is what i mean. YOU think thats the important thing. YOU value living at home with your family. but not every society sees it the same way.

other societies do not think having two parents at home is important. other societies do not rely upon or even recognise what we would call the nuclear family.

im not saying you are wrong to value what you do. i am saying it is wrong to decide that YOUR values are the right ones, and if only the whole world would change to your way of thinking, everyone would be much happier!

im not being sarcastic or mean here, honestly, its sometimes difficult to tell tone from reading :-)

So what to do in the meantime dreaming? Saying things like "as long as this system continues, there will be less pressure for national governments to improve conditions within their own countries" - that makes it sound like what the OP doing right now is enabling the poor conditions in the Philippines to continue. The logical implication of what you're saying is that the OP should stop because she is enabling the Philippine government to drag their feet on creating jobs and stopping brain drain.

Thank you for that Bottle, I think you articulate that very well actually

It's not so much I pity people, I just think it sucks that they have to make such horrible choices.

I know there are far worse things than living in a nice house abroad with nice employers and putting your kid through school, but there are far better ones too, where you get to actually see your kids grow up and stuff.

I have worked with so many migrants over the years, also in London, and yes they make the best of things and life goes on. I just don't think their employers usually realise how hard it is for them sometimes.

I think that Bottle and dreaming are essentially saying the same thing here just differently

And I agree with both, the thing is, it is about remembering where each party is coming from when dealing with these things. Acknowledging your own position of privilege and theirs and working from that point forward.