To end a lifelong friendship because of this?

[gomummygo]

Should probably name change but oh well. I have posted about this once before, about a year ago and I've stuck it out until now, BUT...

Lifelong friend, generally nice person, but one of her two DCs is utterly horrible to be around. :( I know, it sounds awful to say. It's well past being a phase, we're talking years now of incredibly obnoxious behaviour. Obnoxious is the exact word but can't begin to describe how extreme it is. Friend says that her DC are "free spirits" and does not try to curb it at all. Her other DC is far better behaved.

My DH does not want to associate with her & her DH at all because of this and I can't blame him. He'd prefer our DS not be around them because of the things that he picks up and we then have to explain why we don't do these things.

A year ago I received advice on here to try to see her without DC. Well, shortly after I posted that she told me about wanting this DC to spend lots more time with me, what a good role model I was, etc., so it made the advice tough to follow! I haven't wanted to give up on a v. long term friendship and I have tried so hard to grit my teeth and bear it but I just cannot stand to be with them anymore!!! It is so frustrating.

We are good enough friends that I have tried to speak to her a couple of times about the behaviours. Problem is that we have completely different parenting philosophies and she really sees a lot of the behaviours as "self expression" that she doesn't want to "quash." I, on the other hand, see it as rude/ill mannered/generally obnoxious.

I really didn't want to lose her friendship over this but I just cannot see how we can continue a friendship when I dread seeing her and now find myself constantly making ridiculous excuses to avoid her, except on rare occasions when I know she will be without said child. She really does have a good heart, she was one of the few friends who stuck around when I made a big (positive for me) life change a few years back.

So if you've gotten this far, AIBU to give up on the friendship? There isn't really much left of it anyway at this point I guess, but I'm :( about it.

Be brutal, I feel like I deserve it for even asking, but between having my house destroyed and listening to an endless stream of incredibly rude drivel, I am at my wits end and genuinely have no idea where to go from here.

good luck.

i suspect you might find she responds by trying to put you down and make out you're the one with issues but tbh at least then you might be able to let the friendship and not feel bad about it anymore. i doubt that she's going to say oh yes i'm so sorry etc more likely she will do attack as the best defense. in which case you'll know the friendship has run it's course.

i must admit i think a 'friend' who watches her child tear your curtain pole off the wall and doesn't tell him off, apologise to you and offer to repair it or pay for a new one is beyond redemption.

I'm sure your dh is the most sensible man alive op

I realise I came across as strident and humourless when I posted, I'm not really so harsh but when pushed once too often, I will cut you off without a backward glance.

I just can't see this as you ending the friendship atall, I see this as her leaving you with precious little choice, if you want to maintain your boundries. She really is disrespecting you, your home and your parenting. Her withering comment 'that's unfortunate' is unabashed bitchiness disguised as fellow feeling.

Do you feel you will miss her badly if she is out of your life? Would it need to be a permanent thing anyway? We tend to make friends with things in common and if your parenting styles are opposing, your common ground is shaky. It's such a big part of your lives currently. I don't think it is easily left at the wine bar door.

good luck with your chat! i hope it goes well

Good luck with the chat Gomummy - two bits of advice -

1. focus on the child's behaviour, not the child himself
2. do say that your DH feels exactly the same if not more so.

She may still blow a gasket but she needs to know you're not personally attacking her DS or she can just put it down to a "personality clash" and change nothing.

God luck!

I'm thinking of you; I know it must be beyond hard.

Good luck.

A wise friend once said to me when my now 18 year old was a baby 'never fall out with a good friend over children'.

Your friend's DS will grow up and will change, and hopefully you two will still have your friendship.

Good luck. Thinking of you too. X

Thinking of you GoMummy.

I think her son's rudeness may be genetic .Honestly,she is being rude and disrespectful by forcing 'her' way of doing things on to you.She isn't paying any respect to either you,or your children,by making you accept this behaviour while in your company.That's not friendship,it's actually a form of bullying,in my opinion.

Don't feel one bit bad about sticking up for either yourself or your own children.

Good luck with the 'chat'.

I wish someone had come on who parented in the same way as the 'friend'. I'd really love to understand what they are thinking when they let their dcs behave like absolute brats. What goes through their minds when they see their children destroy others' property or hurt other children? How can they possibly think it's just 'self-expression'?

And I think Perfumedlife has got it absolutely spot on!

Gomummygo - I agree that you need to focus on the behaviour, not the child (and I'm sure that's what you do anyway). Perhaps you could tell your friend that you are not willing to let anyone come to your house and wreck stuff - and that doing that is not 'experimenting' or 'freedom of expression' - it is showing huge disrespect for someone else's home. You could also say that you find it hard to enjoy a conversation with her when you are stressed about what's going to be broken this time, or the conversation is being interrupted by screeching/shouting etc.

I have three boys, all teenagers now, all of whom have been brought up to respect other people's homes and possessions, and to have good manners - and they have all grown up to be bright, independant boys, who don't seem 'stifled' in any way.

Tell her that having some basic rules does not stifle a child - indeed it allows them far more freedom in the long run, because they will be welcome wherever they go, and their parents will be able to trust that when they are out and about, they are treating other people and their possessions with respect.

For me, respect is the key word. And it has to be mutual - and she is teaching her child that everything has to go his way, and he doesn't have to respect anyone else. That's not going to make him popular or welcome anywhere other than his own home, imo.

I don't think for one minute she is bullying, or showing disrespect for someone else's values etc; or foisting her values on to other people - else why would she say that you OP are a role model for her son? I really don't think she realises what she is doing. i remember getting chucked out of a doctor's surgery and a restaurant and a friend's house because, I guess, I let my children be 'expressive'. I can't remember the exact details but I was probably a bit like your friend OP. I honestly didn't see anything wrong with it - though would definitely have offered to pay for a broken curtain rail. I understood that people had certain values, privately thought they were a bit uptight (just as they privately, and not so privately, thought I was a bit lax) but endeavoured to teach my kids that in someone else's house/domain you go by their rules, not ours. I got it wrong sometimes. I was also depressed when my kids were little - and overwhelmed. A lot passed me by. Is your friend depressed/overwhelmed OP? (I'm not suggesting that if she is you don't lay down some boundaries - in fact, if she is, boundaries are more important than ever.)

I also remember it being an absolute joy when I met a woman whose kids were as wild as mine; and the pair of us sat and drank tea in her kitchen with all hell breaking loose in the house, c/o her kids and mine.

hope your chat went well!

How'd it go OP? Or was your friend's DS perfectly behaved all of a sudden?

I am so impatient to know. Alas as she lives in Canada, we may be waiting a while (I have no idea of the time difference )

Sorry for the delay all, as Idjustassoonkissawoodiee mentioned, I am in Canada, so behind your time by quite a bit.

Unfortunately it did not go as well as I had hoped, but was not a big blow up either. I do think the friendship will be over though.

In short, you already know what I told her, in the kindest way that I could.

She didn't yell and scream or anything, but she was upset, as expected. She said it's too bad that I feel that way, as we have been friends for a long time, but her children come first and she wasn't going to change what she was doing just because it bothers me. She took some shots, that I expected, said I cared too much about what other people might think of my DS' behaviour (apparently this is the reason I teach him manners and politeness), how my home looked, etc.

A cool discussion ensued where we sort of half-heartedly said that we'd get together without DCs, but that's very unlikely to actually happen, and even if it did, I think it would now be horribly uncomfortable.

So, we left it, under that premise, that we both clearly knew was false. The whole visit lasted about fifteen minutes, and I think we both know we won't get together again.

I'm sad, but I'm also relieved. I guess that sounds terrible. Thanks to some different views on this AIBU as well as from my DH, I'm ok with it. I care about her of course, but I was upset every time we got together.

Anyway there you have it - I think I failed overall. But I tried as best I could to be honest and still as kind as I could be about it.

Thanks everyone for the guidance and opinions and experiences shared and good wishes. Wish I had more success to report. :(

Ahhh lovely lady. You're being too hard on yourself. You made the right choice and I'm 100% positive you did it in the best way possible. ((hugs))

Try not to feel too guilty - even though I know you are!

Oh go sorry it went like it did x

Ouch. Glad you're relieved. Her reaction kind of confirmed that you did the right thing.

Bet your friend will have similar problems in the future, not everyone will be as patient as you've been.

don't feel bad and no you did not fail. you put up and put up and eventually had enough and tried to discuss it as nicely as possible with her but realistically the moment you made an attempt to have boundaries and protect your own feelings and needs it was over - that tells you something about her and the quality of the friendship in the end.

don't feel bad about feeling relieved - enjoy it and well done for being assertive rather than just disappearing or putting up with it until you ended up snapping.

you did good.

You certainly did not fail. While I certainly wouldn't expect her to choose a friendship over the wellbeing of her dc, if she is so deluded that she thinks its reasonable for her ds to trash other peoples houses and that is fine because she doesn't want to quash his self expression then you won't be the last friend she loses.

Personally this sort of parenting is totally self obsessed and disrespecful and gets right on my tits. If you want to parent like that in your own house then thats fine but think it is reasonable for your child to destroy someone elses house and hurt other children is beyond the pale.

Understand you being sad because of shared history but given that she responded as she did you are well rid. Oh, and for the record you don't care too much about your house and your dc's behaviour. Or it you do that makes 2 of us.

Just try not to laugh and say 'I told you so' when her ds is a feral nightmare teenager with no friends and she is tearing her hair out . Actually thats for him really isn't it?

I think the fact that you are relieved speaks volumes.

I can't say I'm surprised op but sorry you have had to have the awful chat. She said she wasn't going to change what she was doing, just because it bothers you. There's the problem. No one is saying she ought to bring her children up differently, just to suit you. But, when they are behaving badly in your home, or when you are around, she ought to intervene, out of common decency. Yet she won't. Stubborn, blinkered or plain arrogant, am not quite sure.

I disagreed with the advice to have the chat with her, I thought it was pointless and I still do really. People with such attitudes to their kids are never going to be receptive to criticism, you are only laying yourself open to the 'shots' she fired. But at least you know now where her line in the sand is, and it's nowhere near trying to make you happy or comfortable, it's all on her terms.

What does your dh say?

I think that, even when chats like this go badly they can plant a seed in someone's mind. I'd be more surprised if she immediately acknowledged and apologised for the behaviour. Maybe (probably) the friendship's unsalvageable but you weren't wrong to talk to her. IMO. In fact it was brave.

Thanks all. In the end, I know she certainly thinks IWBU, she really seems blind to how obnoxious the behaviour is.

Perfumed, DH sees it as all over and is quite glad - in addition to having to correct things DS picked up, he was rather sick of my being upset by the behaviour of a child, not to mention the damage to our home. He's glad that I spoke to her rather than continuing to avoid her because he thinks it gives "closure" to the whole thing rather than just letting it drag on any longer than it has.

Mostly now I feel guilty for feeling relieved.