To end a lifelong friendship because of this?

[gomummygo]

Should probably name change but oh well. I have posted about this once before, about a year ago and I've stuck it out until now, BUT...

Lifelong friend, generally nice person, but one of her two DCs is utterly horrible to be around. :( I know, it sounds awful to say. It's well past being a phase, we're talking years now of incredibly obnoxious behaviour. Obnoxious is the exact word but can't begin to describe how extreme it is. Friend says that her DC are "free spirits" and does not try to curb it at all. Her other DC is far better behaved.

My DH does not want to associate with her & her DH at all because of this and I can't blame him. He'd prefer our DS not be around them because of the things that he picks up and we then have to explain why we don't do these things.

A year ago I received advice on here to try to see her without DC. Well, shortly after I posted that she told me about wanting this DC to spend lots more time with me, what a good role model I was, etc., so it made the advice tough to follow! I haven't wanted to give up on a v. long term friendship and I have tried so hard to grit my teeth and bear it but I just cannot stand to be with them anymore!!! It is so frustrating.

We are good enough friends that I have tried to speak to her a couple of times about the behaviours. Problem is that we have completely different parenting philosophies and she really sees a lot of the behaviours as "self expression" that she doesn't want to "quash." I, on the other hand, see it as rude/ill mannered/generally obnoxious.

I really didn't want to lose her friendship over this but I just cannot see how we can continue a friendship when I dread seeing her and now find myself constantly making ridiculous excuses to avoid her, except on rare occasions when I know she will be without said child. She really does have a good heart, she was one of the few friends who stuck around when I made a big (positive for me) life change a few years back.

So if you've gotten this far, AIBU to give up on the friendship? There isn't really much left of it anyway at this point I guess, but I'm :( about it.

Be brutal, I feel like I deserve it for even asking, but between having my house destroyed and listening to an endless stream of incredibly rude drivel, I am at my wits end and genuinely have no idea where to go from here.

great post from swallowedafly.

sorry I was a bit extreme in my last post - posted far too late . She's a close friend and, well, you know her and what will work best. I'd hate to have a friend 'engineer' a lessening of our friendship (GiveMeSomeSpace's post) - it's a big ask but i would rather she was honest with me - though that takes some skill. Which is what you are trying to work out. I do feel for you, this is a very hard situation to face.

If she was horrified by your parenting she wouldn't be pushing for you to be a 'role model' in his life. She sounds frightened of him tbh, out of her depth?

My Mum had real difficulty parenting my brother. She would try to sort out his bad behaviour and in response he would just through himself down the stairs! Even when he was quite little. A woman from a toddler group suggested my Mum tried 'reasoning' with him. But this just wasn't possible. He was a real handful. I on the other hand, was an angel. I always did and said the right thing. So she find this a lot easier.

The reason I mention this is because your friend says that you are a good role model. Perhaps she can't handle her son and is using the term 'free spirit' as an excuse not to parent him and is asking you for help by getting you to spend time with him so he can learn from you how to behave....?

She must be mortified about the curtain pole surely? She's obviously been making up excuses for his appalling behaviour for so long that she is now immune to noticing when the behaviour has gone way beyond the realms of what's acceptable!

I imagine she has made the rod for her own back by adapting the same 'parenting' she did for her first child, except 1st child was naturally reasonably behaved and her 'relaxed parenting' method looked as though it worked with him. However she didn't bother adapting the parenting method when it seemed her next child was becoming a handful.

As many others have said I think the best you can do for her and for her child is to tell her how you feel about the effect his behaviour has on you and your family! Not in a nasty way, just that you understand that everyone has their own ways of parenting and you respect her decision, however you feel that with such clashing attitudes you think it's better for the time being if you just meet up without the children! It may make her think about how she is dealing with her ds's behaviour!

It must be difficult for anyone to be told their child's behaviour is disagreeable to others, so the matter has to be dealt with delicately! But I do think this child will suffer in the long run if his behaviour is not dealt with! Let's face it, the child is really not to blame, and who wants to be told they're letting their children down?

Good luck gomummygo

See her without the kids ... You both have DPs, so get them to babysit and have a nice bit of child-free chat with just the two of you.

By the sound of it she's probably aware on some level that her DC's a pain in the proverbials but what she does/ doesn't do about it isn't your problem! I've got several friends whose kids I don't like but unless the relationship is actually based around the children ( which it sounds like it isn't if you were mates before they were born ) it really isn't worth breaking up over ...

Say you're gagging for some adult conversation and having the kids with you all the time does your head in or somesuch and take it from there. If she's stuck with a 5 year old horror all day she'll probably leap at the chance!

I've been thinking about this, and I think it boils down to how much your friend means to you.

My mum had a best friend, I couldn't stand her daughter and we were expected to be friends, our mothers parented in very different ways. It simply wasn't working, it affected their friendship. SO... they went out for a coffee together, no kids and DID NOT comment on each other's parenting, but simply said "Unfortunately our kids simply don't get on, we don't want to lose each other's friendship, so from now on, for the sake of our friendship, we will keep our children out of the equation" - it meant that they didn't see as much of each other as they wanted to, but the friendship remained.

That was 30 years ago, and now the children have all grown up, they have each other still.

I have friends who's parenting styles conflict with my own. In a big way. There is no abuse or mistreatment so I am able to distance myself from my friends as parents and view them as friends. We made a decision early on that unless our children absolutely adored each other we'd keep the kids out of it. One friend's child gets on very very well with my two, so we have playdates, ones which don't involve both parents!!

A lifelong friendship often requires turning a blind eye to things you don't approve of, keeping out of their parenting business, being gentle with criticism and 'sucking it up and biting your lip'...

Something obviously needs to be addressed OP, and I don't envy you at all. It would be far easier to break off the friendship. However, I do still think that lunch and a non judgey chat could both free you from witnessing the 'bad' parenting and salvage your friendship. If its worth it and if you can do it.

It would be a shame if you can't.

"She has in the past said that I will make him "meek" by trying to instill what I consider to be politeness, and that I will "quash his creativity" by teaching him to conform to rules"

really? she should come round here and spend a few hours with my child then. My child is polite (so much so, friends have actually commented on it).He is certainly not meek, he is very sure of himself - but not overbearing or bullying. He is very expressive, and very creative.
The making noises thing - my DS is vocal. he loves music and singing...and he does this a LOT. What he doesn't do is make constant noise when others are having a conversation. he has been taught that there are innapropriate times to do so.

As for rules? Well we have boundaries. There are consequences for crossing those. I am at pains not to bring up a child who blindly adheres to 'rules' and so called 'conformity' - but he's 6 and so i'm doing this in a way appropriate to his age.

She will either take on board you reasons and change things in which case your friendhsip may survive this, but given how she responded before I'm not sure she will. You should tell her why though. I know it's difficult, i've been there.....but you need to be honest with her about why. (and take your DH up on his offer of being blame dog, even just a little bit)

I feel sorry for her DS who, as others have said, will find it very hard going at school and in life generally unless he learns appropriate boundaries.

She really has abdicated responsibility on teaching how life works. And the DH sounds so laid back as to be horizontal and has also abdicated responsibility.

How this leaves your friendship I don't know, expect that it seems in your mind it HAS already changed and pretty much gone. This happens - we all have friends at diferent stages in life depending on circumstances - if this one drains rather than energises you then move on.

Maybe you should turn this situation on its head and look at it a different way, how much do you think she has considered your feelings in all of this?

You mentioned the incident of her DC pulling your curtain and rail off the wall. If that was my child, I'd be so embarassed, I wouldn't have let it get to the stage where she's hanging off a curtain anyway. To me, that isn't creativity, thats plain naughtiness, and I would class that as unacceptable behaviour for my 3yr old let alone a 5yr old. And for your friend to come back with, 'now you know why my house is the way it is' is not good enough. I would have been apologising profusely and offering help to get it rectified.

I'm not saying give up on the friendship but you have to consider your own feelings and your family in all this, not just procrastinating over her feelings.

It is interesting that she says the DC wants to see more of you and "you are such a good role model". I knew someone like this, she had no control over her children nor did her husband only their cleaner and my DH ever managed to get them to behave. She would often bring the boys over to our place because "your DH has so much testosterone" (?!) but DH got sick of sorting the kids out, then they pulled up all my plants and hit the cat. So that was the end of that really.

I wonder if parents who are unwilling/unable to set boundaries hang around those who DO set boundaries as they want that person to do the discipline so they, the parent, can be their child's "friend" and not be seen to do anything nasty or "upset" their child.
If this is the case with your friend the friendship is doomed because the child can only go from bad to worse. He probably wants those boundaries and is playing up so badly to see how far he has to go. Studies have shown that children without boundaries have problems fitting in socially and developing emotional competence because they have no clue how to behave to make friends or exist within a social group.

Also, your DC will pick up the bad behaviours. DD was often invited round to one girl's house as DD was well behaved and could "set a good example". The result was the other girl behaved no better and my DD behaved a whole lot worse, picking up some really annoying behaviours that she is still doing 2 years on and it drives me bonkers as I can see the behaviour came direct from that one child. I sat and watched it happen and I've managed to get her out of one bad habit but she still has one other. I've regretfully had to end that friendship too.

This post makes me sound intolerant and friendless!!! I would point out that the adults friendships that we have that have lasted are with parents with broadly similar parenting styles to us.

If you really value her friendship, put it onto an adults only basis for the time being. You say there are very few adult only social opportunities - well if you care about the friendship perhaps you need to create more of these?

I would certainly not criticise the children or the parenting of a close friend if you want the friendship to survive. You should both be respectful of each others choices. Just say the styles are currently incompatible for you at the moment but you don't expect that to be the situation for ever more. I have had several experiences like this where kids who used to have scant respect for other people or their property have become a complete delight to be around once slightly older.

I wonder if a letter or email, rather than being the wuss's way out, might give you a chance for you to say things exactly as you'd wish, and for her to be able to think before reacting in a way she might regret.

Make clear you think it's a question of clashing parenting styles, rather than saying you think she's wrong.

Mind you, I think she's wrong. I don't think showing zero respect for others' things is going to make him Shakespeare, I think it's just going to get him an Asbo.

Really great post Aldiwhore hope it turns out like that for OP. Totally agree that you can still be friends and i think a calm, non-judgemental acknowledgement is the way to go but I suppose that is very hard if her friend doesn't agree.

NorfolkBroad I guess that will be the 'crunch time' won't it?

I would say that if her friend objects to this, or gives an ultimatum like 'me and the kids or no me' then its time to sadlt say bye-bye.

I absolutely cannot bear one of my friend's children. Totally unfairly really, he's just one of those people who make me irritated for no good reason... poor kid. Avoidance tactics, and making more of an effort with child unfriendly activities has saved our friendship, and hopefully, she will never need to know I do not like her offspring! I adore her.

I feel for you, I have a lovely lovely neighbour with a nightmare 9 year old DS who kicks off every time he comes round to the point when my heart sinks just seeing him . My DDs (10) feel the same. He kicks doors, swears, has huge tantrums if things don't go exactly his way ......... all incredibly stressful. Me and DH get on so well with his parents and his siblings, but just can tolerate this boy.

I haven't had the guts to confront her as I know she is finding it very difficult to parent him and would be terribly upset at any comments or judgement, but I try to see her when kids are at school or in the evening now and the times when we've all met up together are getting fewer. I can just about tolerate him if we know the weather is going to be good and we can all stay in the garden, but if I know we are going to be cooped up indoors I can't bear it. The last time they were here DH had to restrain him physically after he tried to kick a hole in one of our new internal doors. Parents did nothing, except a very weak 'don't do that, it's not nice' kind of thing. I'd have gone ballistic if one of my kids did that and they'd be home in bed before they knew it. DH is adamant he isn't coming in the house again and said he is happy to explain exactly why if asked .... but he does have more backbone than me .

Anyway, good luck, it needs sorting, you can't go on like that. Curtain pole , i just can't believe what some parents thinks is ok!

great post aldiwhore - has made me think about a situation in my own life that i need to make a decision about.

OP how about if you decline meeting up when she suggests it with the kids (and obviously don't suggest it yourself) but make suggestions to meet up just the two of you. She will likely know why but if she does ask it will be a good starting point for 'the conversation'.
I agree that if you sound like you're judging her/her kids it will automatically put her on the defensive so you could try just saying something general about it being more pleasant to meet up without kids interrupting/breaking things etc.

We, as parents, mothers, whatever, shouldn't be so damned defensive if someone criticises our precious offspring. You only have to read the 'bringing back the cane' thread to see how much hand wringing is done over bad behaviour and how to deal with it. Well, not listening to our peers when our kids are destructive is a clear sign we are not really serious about sorting it out.

No, the fifies were not ideal but gosh, parents were a damn sight more willing to actually be responsible for their kids. Being responsible is not just bathing/feeding/schooling, it's being the bad guy sometimes and enforcing boundries. Hearing hard truths and acting on them.

I wouldn't actually want to remain friends with someone who abdicated responsibility for their kids, nor cared about my feelings or the destruction of my property. Harsh, maybe, but I treat people with respect and expect it in return.

I don't believe you owe her a damn thing, far less one last heart to heart.

Had a long conversation with DH about this last night. He is a kind and lovely man who is very easygoing; but in this case he thinks that I am slightly unhinged to even want to continue the friendship!

:( for those of you who have experienced similar, but also comforted to know that it is not just me in this situation. Not looking forward to this weekend's discussion, she knows something is up from my excuse-making, but really think she does not know the extent to which the obnoxious behaviour is affecting things. Will try to let you all know how it turns out in the end. Just can't see any way that this will go well, but I will give it my best effort.

You sound like a caring, sensitive friend, and am sure you'll handle the conversation well. Hope it goes as well as possible in the circumstances.

Know it's totally voyeuristic, but please report back!

Perfumed, you sound exactly like my DH, and I'm coming round to thinking that maybe both of you have a good point. Honestly I've never really thought about her inaction as disrespect to me and my family/property (rather, her own choice in parenting her own child), but between this thread and talking to DH, I'm starting to see that in a lot of ways, her doing nothing about the rude behaviour and destruction is actually a lack of respect for us.

I am hoping this weekend's discussion goes shockingly well. But I know her, and that is not likely to be the case.

I think if she's letting her child ruin her own house then it could be said to be her choice but not other peoples. If she is so keen on letting her child run riot she should have at least paid for the damage to your house - she is taking the mick not to. She would have to if he damaged property at school - and he would be disciplined for it.

Just wishing you luck, gomummy. Have been there on two occasions.

First, I just let the friendship go, because it wasn't that close.

Second time was harder, as I am close to my friend, but I find her children a complete nightmare. Youngest, in particular, has a tendency to physically attack my youngest, which I will not stand.

It worked itself out - I just used to discipline said child and tell him off, exactly the same as I would do with my own. As a result, child does not like me! ( I'm an absolute softy, but I won't fuss over him, expect table manners at my house, and won't tolerate aggressive behaviour).

Nothing was ever said, but my friend obviously doesn't feel relaxed at my house with the child, so we meet at parks/softplay and not at houses.

Btw, we are still very close friends, and there has never been an issue.

Good luck with your chat.

Just to add that I had a similar issue when my children were younger.

I decided that I would only let my children and those of my friend get together at my house, and made the 'house rules' implicitly clear to everyone.

As my friend did not ever step in to discipline her children (it was like she couldn't sense when the 'flash points' were for her very unruly and aggressive son) I did it instead.

I made sure I was totally fair and extremely consistent - and probably harder on my own children for a while too.

It was exhausting! lol
But...... it worked.

Being a good friend is a two-way street.

For your friend to essentially ignore how upset you are about all this is a measure of her priorities - and it is unfair that you should feel bad about a situation that is not of your making.

I've not read the whole thread yet, but my take on this is that while she has every right to raise her children as she sees fit, you have every right to insist on certain behaviour in your house. I would be inclined to bypass the friend totally when he is in your home or does something which affects your children, and say directly to the child, "in this house, we don't do X, we do Y". Can you not meet in neutral locations or at her house?

In the end though, I think it's best to talk to her. You have nothing to lose because you are at the end of your tether with this. I think you will have to say something along the lines of "I love you dearly, and value our friendship. I don't want to criticise how you raise your dc, but I have concerns about how X is behaving and think perhaps he needs a bit more structure than your other child. His 'free spiritedness' is starting to impact on my own dc. I prefer a more structured approach to my child rearing and unless you are willing to follow that in my house, then I would prefer to meet without the children, because it's confusing my own dc."

Apologies if I'm repeating what's already been said. Will nip back and read the rest of this now.

good luck with that chat.