To end a lifelong friendship because of this?

[gomummygo]

Should probably name change but oh well. I have posted about this once before, about a year ago and I've stuck it out until now, BUT...

Lifelong friend, generally nice person, but one of her two DCs is utterly horrible to be around. :( I know, it sounds awful to say. It's well past being a phase, we're talking years now of incredibly obnoxious behaviour. Obnoxious is the exact word but can't begin to describe how extreme it is. Friend says that her DC are "free spirits" and does not try to curb it at all. Her other DC is far better behaved.

My DH does not want to associate with her & her DH at all because of this and I can't blame him. He'd prefer our DS not be around them because of the things that he picks up and we then have to explain why we don't do these things.

A year ago I received advice on here to try to see her without DC. Well, shortly after I posted that she told me about wanting this DC to spend lots more time with me, what a good role model I was, etc., so it made the advice tough to follow! I haven't wanted to give up on a v. long term friendship and I have tried so hard to grit my teeth and bear it but I just cannot stand to be with them anymore!!! It is so frustrating.

We are good enough friends that I have tried to speak to her a couple of times about the behaviours. Problem is that we have completely different parenting philosophies and she really sees a lot of the behaviours as "self expression" that she doesn't want to "quash." I, on the other hand, see it as rude/ill mannered/generally obnoxious.

I really didn't want to lose her friendship over this but I just cannot see how we can continue a friendship when I dread seeing her and now find myself constantly making ridiculous excuses to avoid her, except on rare occasions when I know she will be without said child. She really does have a good heart, she was one of the few friends who stuck around when I made a big (positive for me) life change a few years back.

So if you've gotten this far, AIBU to give up on the friendship? There isn't really much left of it anyway at this point I guess, but I'm :( about it.

Be brutal, I feel like I deserve it for even asking, but between having my house destroyed and listening to an endless stream of incredibly rude drivel, I am at my wits end and genuinely have no idea where to go from here.

I agree with Rita - what it comes down to is different parenting styles. It's important to not be overly critical as no one wants to be told how to parent their own child.

Your friend knows how different you are and has criticised your stifling ways - this is fair enough since you are criticising her. I think in this case you have to accept in a mature way that you have contrasting approaches and the differences are too great for your children to spend time together. If she values your friendship, she will see you alone. I doubt she will be surprised since the topic has come up before and she is clearly aware of your differences.

You may find things change in years to come - you may get close again.

Sorry to disappear for a bit, was actually speaking with friend in question on phone, she was asking what was wrong!

Anyhow, will try to answer everything:

Friend's house is a disaster area (not judging this, btw, just answering question about whether or not the destruction takes place at her home - yes, it very much does). Every room looks like a tornado has hit. This does not seem to bother her or her DH.

When curtain rod pulled out at my house, friend said something to the effect of "sorry, now you can see why my house looks the way it does!" and I actually left the room for a minute to compose myself as I was quite upset and didn't want to explode in front of my own DS. Curtain rod is one of probably fifty examples of that kind of thing over the last couple of years.

My DS is only 3, he is just learning about not necessarily copying what others do, but is fine once we explain to him why we don't do certain things. DH's irritation stems from the fact that some of these things have never occurred to DS until he says "but X does that!"

She has never criticized my parenting, just said that the whole rules thing is not what she wants for her DC's, as she thinks it stifles their self expression, etc. We've both always accepted that we were very different this way. The times I've talked to her I have been very careful to use "I" statements and try very hard not to sound critical.

Hope I answered everyone, will go back and re-read.

Oops, missed one.

I have my DS pretty much 24/7, no childcare, DH travels for work. When DH is home he now flat out refuses to get together with them, and I don't blame him after some of the incidents that have happened when he was there. So when we get together it is us and the DCs. She works when her DC is at school (other one in child care).

I have a similar problem with a friend. Friend's DS is 10 years old and mine 6. The child is spoilt and not effectively disciplined and will still tantrum if he doesn't get things his way. When they are at my house, I will tell him off and often have to say things like 'could you please use your knife and fork to eat nicely because I'm having trouble with my DS eating nicely and need you to set an example'. My DS will of course think he has free range to pick at his food with his fingers if someone else is doing it at the table.

The older boy does love being asked to set a good example for my DS or to supervise him and sometimes both boys are trying to compete to show that they are the better one! If told off or not getting his way, the older boy will often tell my friend he feels sick and wants to go home, cue lots of whingey, clingy behaviour and a big show of distress, often put on for me to see if I will change my mind about what I have said to him. Friend will either take him home or get into an argument with him about not going.

I also get my friend telling me that the boy loves spending time with us and really misses seeing me and that I am a great influence on him. If I try to bring up the boy's behaviour friend gets all defensive, can't see that parenting could possibly be an issue.

I did once have to leave friend's house because I couldn't face the way the boy was behaving nor the way friend's parenting was encouraging this. I didn't want to direct my feelings at the child or criticise the parenting which I know would not be accepted so I simply said that I found it really difficult to cope with and was sorry but it was not something I was comfortable with, sorry for causing a fuss. There was some improvement after that.

I find it easier to get together on neutral territory somewhere away from either of our houses and due to the other child's horrid table manners and fussy eating, to try to avoid anything that involves eating out - picnic is preferred choice.

This is So difficult i know, im in the same situation but my friends boy is 9 and i have been waiting it out...but he is getting worse.
I dont know what to do other than meeting her without him...but we are off on holiday with them in a couple of weeks.....wich me luck. (He was going on holiday with his nanny...but now is coming with us)

Um. She is obviously aware of the problem. She might be embarrassed. She might not know how to, or indeed be able to curb this behaviour. She may already be in a situation where she limits social interactions because of this. Sounds like she sees you as an incredibly balanced person, perhaps who can exert a calmness on her child.

I have three children and their behaviour varies vastly and sometimes do things that embarrass me in other people's houses

I'm not saying you don't have the right to leave this friendship, but I do agree you owe it to her to feed something back. No perfect solution here though I know

But op why didnt u jst tell her on phone what problem is

Thought it wouldn't be right on the phone, we are getting together this weekend and I will have to bite the bullet. I expect it will not go well. :(

Hope it goes as well as it can, gomummy. I see you are up as late as me and hope it's not because you are worrying

I am worrying Peel, but I am not in UK so not up as late as you!

Can't help but think of how badly I'd feel if someone said they didn't want to be around DS. :( She has in the past said that I will make him "meek" by trying to instill what I consider to be politeness, and that I will "quash his creativity" by teaching him to conform to rules, that type of thing; but really, in a friendship lasting about a quarter of a century, those are probably the most bothersome kind of things she's ever said to me. And when she says that kind of stuff, it doesn't come off as criticism at all, more like "how unfortunate."

I, on the other hand, am about to say "I can't stand being around your child any longer."

Can't help but feel horrible about that. :(

I think the whole thing is coming to a head now as she has recently moved closer to where I am, so less travel means more visits, and the problem is more difficult to manage/tolerate/grit teeth through. Not looking forward to the weekend conversation.

oh gomummy - so sorry for you in this situation! I have a couple of friends with children whose behaviour can be problematic, but both of them are fully aware and very mortified by it when it happens! I don't know how I'd cope with a friend who thought it was ok for their son to trash someone else's home out of "freedom of expression" and "not being stifled".

Her DS is not going to win friends and influence people with completely out of control behaviour, far from it. She will discover soon enough that other parents won't want him around either - but possibly too late for your friendship.

I wouldn't use your DH as a scapegoat, but I would involve him in the whole discussion, in that she needs to see that it is NOT just you and your different ideas, but also your DH who finds her son's behaviour unbearable.

Politeness does not make people meek - manners do not make them mild. I cannot stand the "my child doesn't need to learn manners" school of thought - why the bloody hell not? Manners are a passport to social acceptance in all walks of life - doing what the bloody hell you please as and when you like are often a passport to a jail term. She needs to grow up and understand that she is doing her son no favours at all - he needs boundaries or he's going to be one sad and angry boy when no one wants to be his friend because he has no clue how to behave properly. :(

Oh God- the "how unfortunate" thing is worse than outright criticism. It's so bloody smug/PA.

Don't feel bad. Life's short. If you're not enjoying her company when her son's present, then there's no point in spending time with her, other than alone.

The thing is that different parenting philosophies are fine so long as they achieve the end, which is to have children who don't trash houses, hit other kids and adults, lie and steal. My friend has an absolutely gorgeous, kind, lovely son of 6 and she is very much in the "When you say things like that, you hurt mummy's feelings" camp. It wouldn't be my approach, but it's worked. However, there is no parenting philosophy that says "let them do whatever they want with no regard for anyone else or their property". That way, reform school lies.

She sounds like she's been reading too many books. Is she for real?? She deserves a slap! Somebody has got to tell her she's full of shit and God help her when he grows up (if she survives it, particularly with no friends). She sounds like a complete nightmare. And when the shit hits the fan (which it will) she may remember what you said. I don't think your friendship is going to survive this OP, sorry. Unless she wakes up and a miracle happens.

""I can't stand being around your child any longer" sounds like a good place to start. I'd take off the kid gloves if I were you because she's just not hearing it with you pussy-footing around and going out of the room when her child does something outrageous.

haha didn't mean to italicise 'she sounds like a complete nightmare' but it's fitting

I thought Rita's was the perfect answer.
Just tell her straight - "look, we have different parenting styles and I find it stressful being together with all the children. In future lets meet up adults only".

You don't have to tell her you can't stand being around her DS, fgs, that's just brutal. OK, if she pushes it you may have to specify why you find it so stressful - and that may hurt - but, as she's so laissez-faire, she might well simply respect your choice.

You will see less of her. Can't be helped; it's vv hard to keep up with friends who have kids, without the kids! Might be a good reason to start having more grown-up nights out, though. That'd be nice.

According to psychologists permissive discipline and strict discipline can both turn out a well adjusted child, as long as they are consistent. Inconsistent discipline is the real worry. Kids who grow up not knowing for certain where they stand don't go forward and grab life with both hands quite so well... Or so I read somewhere.

If there's any truth in it then perhaps she's doing wrong by her kids in making home life so different from the grandparents and the school's standards. I don't know, but might it give you a lead into having another chat to her?

remember you're not saying you can't stand him but that you can't stand the behaviour. emphasise that because we all know there is a big difference. emphasise she is a good friend and you're telling her this because you'd like to be able to keep up the friendship just you and her for now rather than lose it because you can't cope with the behaviour stuff anymore. if she pushes bring up the curtain pole thing and say that tbh you were totally shocked that he did that and she didn't tell him off or see it as a problem whereas for you that is a real problem and you were really upset and angry about it.

fwiw this is beyond permissive parenting - beyond not teaching rules. normally even if there are no fixed rules there are consequences to one's actions yes? she's not allowing him to feel natural consequences. consequence of damaging someone else's home like that should be shock and horror on everyone's faces and being told off and made to apologise and experiencing the embarrassment of it and the person whose home has been damaged sadness and awareness that it has created work and expense. we learn from consequences - if she's making it so there are none then he's buggered.

Rita's advice seems spot on to me...

That said, I did just wonder whether your friend isnt just putting on a a brave face by defending her son's behaviour? Just wondered as her 'role model' comment struck me as her not being quite as happy with it as she might at first appear and her DS is out of control and she doesnt know what to do.

I think it's really hard to stay friends with someone when you have such different parenting ideas, and both have children. I really think it will be almost impossible to see her without dc's. By nature everyone is protective of their children and parenting style so even if you put it nicely and she thinks there's some truth in it, she will probably still be offended.

in a way the parenting bit is a red herring isn't it? that curtain incident showed a blatant disrespect of you and your home from the mother didn't it? it actually goes beyond parenting differences when another adult has no respect for your boundaries (and not wanting your fixtures yanked off of the wall and left there is hardly a bizarre or anal boundary).

to be honest if she has no respect like that it's hardly surprising he doesn't.

I think you have probably been too polite to her in the past, one option that doesn't require a direct confrontation is to start to pick her child up more often and increase the discomfort zone eg next piece of damage just say sorry that's just unacceptable at this age, pick up on bad behaviour ie cause small fights - I will bet you this child is unwelcome everywhere else.

I think your story is that its one thing when a kid is 2 but you expect totally different behaviour in your house by this age.....and it is your house, dammit.

Is it possible to leave your children with your DH when you visit your friend this weekend; that way you will possibly be a lot calmer and less worried about your own children's behaviour so that when you have the 'discussion' you can give your friend your whole attention and by leaving your children at home it will be clear that you are serious about the effect her DS has on them.

Of course, this won't work if they are visiting your home - unless you send DH out with your children?

I have a very similar situation with my best friend of 20 odd years and her eldest child.
Child is three, a year younger than my dd and has a sibling a year younger.
He pulls hair, bites, scratches, hits ect and doesn't do as he is told in any situation.

My friends attitude very similar to your friends,however last time I saw her she asked my opinion (as her father had made a comment about taking the situation in hand)

I said that she is responsible for teaching him what acceptable behaviour is and that effectively she is setting him up for a difficult time in the future (being labelled as the naughty child at school ect) by allowing this behaviour to continue.

Basic problem to many warnings and no consequences.

This is a very brief summary of the conversation that took place (flying off to work) but if you value your friendship then be honest with your friend.

OP things change in life, none more so than frindships (and marriages!) when children come along. It used to really upset me, but once I started accepting that things do change and sometimes you can't control them, I've become more relaxed about it all.

Before children come along, friends tend to get on because their own personal interests won't cause direct conflict between each other. Once children come along - everyone is focussed on the same thing ie their own children. And because the children interect and are all different, these different approaches can conflict very harshly. And that doesn't mean you are right or she is right - you're just different now. If it means that we spend less time with some of our friends then that may be a good thing.

IMO, you should try your best to keep the friendship but engineer it so that it is just you and her and doesn't involve the children. It's easy to do. She may get the message and she may not like it, but that, again, will be something you can't control and may have to live with. If that means losing the friendship then so be it. She sounds like she's been a good friend over the years, so that's worth trying to keep, just not around the children.

HTH and Good lock:)