...to be cross with this doctor's presence during the birth?

[chickenchops]

Really not sure if i am or not.

I was induced and three hours later given an epidural by the on call anaesthetist. I didn't really like him. He was cross I was skipping the peth injection, got very cross with me when i moved slightly when he stuck me in the back with a needle (without warning), was just overall very abrupt and rude. Oh well i thought... I will never have to see him again.

My labour stalled and I got exhausted. Cue OB coming with ventouse. Just after she arrived, so did the anaesthetist.

He did not speak to me. He did not check any equipment. He did ask midwife if she had to use any boosters. (yes she said. one. although she did not disclose that i was finding the epidural less and less effective and had put me back on gas and air after 2 hours it was sited). the OB got her kit out and got between my legs. Anaesthetist then took position just to her right to watch the birth.

No one explained why he was there. he did not tell me. he made a few inappropriate comments i could have done without and then just well, watched.

Several things went wrong with my birth/aftercare. I ended up writing a letter to the hospital pointing out some aspects of my care that really were wrong and also mentioned that I was quite unhappy that this guy just showed up and hung out between my legs. they were quite surprised I was unhappy about this as "but chicken chops, he's a doctor". I wound up in a meeting with them this week and again expressed how distasteful i found this. they were again gobsmacked and said no one had ever complained before as most women simply don't mind.

really?

I'm not british and grew up in a strict evangelical christian household. I am wondering if i am being precious about my dignity to due how i was raised? Or, would you have found this offensive too?

for the record, the story has changed several times as to why he was there but no one disagrees that while he was there he did nothing.

so... aibu?

That would depend on what aspect of it I was complaining about. A spare bod standing about (who may or may not have been spare) - I would expect to be shouted down. In fact I wouldn't complain in the first place.

Bruffin - no one is encoraging the OP to be upset. Some of us are saying actually you know what it is ok to be upset with what happened to you.

Again this idea that someone else has had it worse and didn't complain/is ok no doesn't negate the effect that this has clearly had on the OP.

YANBU OP. It isn't all about a healthy baby. Of course it isn't. Your thoughts and feelings are entirely relevant. I'm sorry that you had a bad experience.

No one is saying it isn't alright to be upset. The point is she needs to get past it.

Mitmoo I wont tell you about the Drs who I knew many years ago who used to score the breasts of the women who ended up on their operating tables out of 10. Apparently it allieviated the boredom of a dull ENT surgery

Yanbu, I am a nurse and have seen rude nurses, medics and midwives in my time and sometimes they do just strut about and keep their mates company. I don't think it was necessarily unreasonable that he was there but the way he acted was very bad, you have done the right thing complaining but fwiw I would try and leave it there and move on you won't get anything more from the hospital. Hopefully he will be suitably embarrassed and learn.

I had a bad experience with a dr during the birth my first child and was very traumatised but it is now a distant memory a second more positive experience was very healing.

Georgimama plenty of people are saying it isn't alright to be upset: that she should be grateful/ that she shouldn't expect dignity/ but he was a dr etc.

There certainly shouldn't be any students present unless you have given consent. I had DS1 in a private hospital and they had female medical student who was very keen to see a natural birth as they only seemed to be invited to the ones with complications. They were very grateful to me for allowing this and she said a personal thank you afterwards - this is how it should be.

Sorry to post and run- just a busy day!

Also not meaning to drip feed- its just more info becomes relevant as we go along.

I am in the UK. we don't have the NHS here per say but its based upon the model of it and not private. I am giving away a lot and don't really want to say more than that.

The Anaesthetist is a consultant with 35 years experience so unlikely to be observing to gain any knowledge.

MITMOO He absolutely DID NOT tell me he was going to move me or that the needle was about to go in. He was chatting away to the midwife. My husband was standing next to me watching and was as horrified by it happening as i am. I am well aware he could have given me a spinal cord injury. We have complained about this as well. I believe he realises this as he told me every time he puts in epidural in now he thinks of me and what i said. he knows he's damn lucky it didn't go wrong.

When i came home I realised so much of the birth had been far short of the mark of acceptable care. we reviewed my birth notes with a midwife to gain knowledge of what happened, I then wrote a letter to both the head of midwifery and the head of anaesthetists. when they saw the level of complaints i had about the very poor standard of care involved -with not only the anaesthetist but the OB and the midwives-, they themselves involved the chief medical officer of the hospital. they investigated what happened and wrote to me their findings and the ways maternity care would be improved as a result. Good. There were mass discrepancies with the anaesthetists care from what we knew happened and what the investigation produced. they suggested we meet to sort this out. so we did. I don't think this is excessive. Or a waste of time and money. they massively f*cked up on several fronts and when that happens, they need to be made aware. and i had a right to hear from him his point of view. everyone else admitted that the care they provided was not acceptable. only he kept changing his story and still couldn't give a good reason for his presence.

but this post wasn't really about all that happened during the birth... it was purely how would you feel if a doctor who had made no effort to treat you in a compassionate manner or provide any care to you, came to the delivery room to watch the birth or your child, would you mind?

I am seeking nothing further. I don't want money. I don't want another meeting with them. I just simply wanted an acknowledgement that the way i was treated was wrong and that they would review their practice and other women would receive better care.

I think based upon the things he said and the way he acted in our meeting he knows full well where he fell short of the mark and this is likely to have been a bit of a wakeup call to him.

I think theres nothing wrong with that.

"SansaLannister "She asked if you'd have found his watching the birth offensive. No. Because it appears most women don't mind."

Your evidence for this is?

Um, her OP. Where it says, 'they were again gobsmacked and said no one had ever complained before as most women simply don't mind.'"

Yes, she did . I'd forgotten that part and misread your comment as a general statement. My apologies.

OP YANBU You had every right to complain and expect an explanation/apology for what happened.

That one person is happy with lots of people around and another is not is not a criticism of either. Both positions are perfectly reasonable.

Medical professionals need to remember is that we are all individuals (most do I know). In a stressful situation (which may be normal to the professional) we dont necessarily communicate well. It is the professional who should step up to the plate and take the lead in the communications. This isnt about having a nice bedside manner it is making sure that everyone in the room understands what is going on and what their role is.

My guess is that this particular individual and his friend the OB had slid into a habit which was essentially poor practice. Both were to blame. He is as other described probably mortified to find that he has so failed. Unfortunately it seems as with so many others rather than apologising properly he is being mealy mouthed and therefore compounding his mistake.

OP YANBU

i am sure without actually conceding they massively fucked up (and i can't see where they did) they are relieved it's all over.

i do think you should get counselling though.

What do you mean op? You say you are in the uk but dint have the nhs? Was it private then?

"SansaLannister "She asked if you'd have found his watching the birth offensive. No. Because it appears most women don't mind."

I think we don't value privacy in birth because we don't understand why it can be important. We forget that sometimes our feelings and our bodily responses are beyond rational thought - which might be telling us that having loads of strangers in the room is OK, if they're doctors.

In some countries women routinely give birth flat on their backs with their legs in stirrups, with a stranger wearing a mask standing between their legs, and half a dozen other masked strangers milling about in the room - even for a completely normal birth. I suspect if you asked these women did they mind being treated like that they'd say no, and have no idea why anyone would make a fuss about it. They think that's just what birth is like.

Tiffany - I dont think private but I can make an educated guess where. I think the OP doesnt want to out herself completely.

It seems to me there are an awful lot of angry women frequenting this forum and being rather sarcastic just now.

OP was asking a sensible question and IMO the treatment she got wasn't good. Just because it was a good final outcome (ie baby and mother alive and well) doesn't mean she should be grateful for what happened. Personally, I think it sounds very poor customer service.

"Assisted deliveries often mean massive obstetric hemorrhage"

No they don't. Not 'often'.

It's more likely, but not generally likely enough to justify the presence of an anaesthestist.

"ask yourselves what possible benefit to the OP arises from encouraging her to see herself as having been violated in some way"

There is no benefit. But she DOES feel violated.

Just so disgusting that you and people like you on this thread have put so much energy into telling her that she has no right to feel this way, and to 'get over it'.

You can argue that you feel that the anaesthetist wasn't guilty of anything more professionally serious than insensitivity and poor communication without dismissing the OP's feelings about her birth.

Being insensitive may not be dangerous but being a poor communicator can be dangerous. Not this time but another time a failure to communicate effectively could do serious harm. Couple this with an arrogant attitude and you have an accident waiting to happen.

Other professional groups have recognised this and now work hard to improve communication skills of their professionals to minimise risk. The big example of this which I can think of is the airline industry. Pilots were notoriously rude and dismissive of their juniors. Eventually this was recognised and steps taken though not after some very serious accidents.

The OP is right to be upset and to complain. She could be doing more than getting a person to communicate better.

I'm sure it probably is standard practice at that hospital - doesn't mean its right though.
Especially as other hospitals cope without an anaethetist being present.

Gasman mentioned about being there for instrumentals incase a top up is needed. Can the midwives not do that? I can and do as a midwife. Obviously if I'm struggling for any reason then I can get the anaethetist there very quickly. But I've never needed to.

Iteowkawe - when I cannulate someone on labour ward I always use a grey cannula and attach an octopus. Its very rare that someone is bleeding so badly that they need a cannula in the other arm but if they do I can put one in as quick as any Dr.

Maybe some hospitals ought to look at making sure their midwives can do such things which will then reduce the need for an anaethetist to be there.

I had ventouse for DS2 (no epidural though due to lack of time). The OB summoned the anaesthetist to be there just in case. I had an IV line in already and he would have knocked me out if need be for a C section. Maybe it is standard ish practice as assisted deliveries can go wrong and need urgent surgery.

VLB- I doubt very much it is standard practise as surely when questioned they would have just said so rather the various answers I've been given?

That's true chicken chops.

I think YANBU to complain about his manner or the lack of warning when he stuck the needle in (WRT risk of injury) but I can't for one minute see how or why you would complain that a doctor in the room who 'hung out between my legs'. You were giving birth - it had at this stage become a medical procedure and he was observing said procedure. If I were that doctor I'd be really quite offended & sad.

I don't understand why women are expected to have such low expectations of treatment and birth experiences. It would be very different if men had to give birth.