to think that the average MNetter has a pretty rosy view about life in the "average" relationship

[livingonthedge]

Have been lurking for a while now and have seen several threads from (usually) women who live with men who shout, swear at them or manipulate them. Replies are invariably "this is abuse so leave him".

I agree that it is abuse but am not sure about the advice or that it is as uncommon as some make out. I think that (sadly) many (usually) men (sometimes women) have real anger management issues or control issues and that the partner gets the brunt of it.

A quick poll of a friends - one with OH who frequently yells verbal abuse; one "has to have sex every day" (or OH "loses it") and one who has no access to money (just housekeeping) and has things like time to bed and to get up dictated by OH. All stay because they look at the alternative and decide to put up with it.

If someone has a career which pays enough to cover the childcare; or if they are so wealthy that they can come out of the relationship with enough to put down a reasonable deposit on a house; or alternatively if they could get social housing then maybe it is a real alternaitve but for a lot of women I do not think that the desicion is that clear cut. Life in a hostel or refuge is not something that they want for their children. In many areas getting social housing with no obvious bruises or proof of abuse isn't that easy.

"supprt from family or frends" assumes that your family agree that the relationship is abusive and that you have friends that can help. My family would not consider it abuse (note that I am not saying that it isn't abuse - I thnk that it is - but my parents would just say that women have put up with worse etc - ie would not help me (my sister was in this position and was not helped). Friends (as above) are in similar relationships and so cannot help (can't see their OHs allowing it :) ).

Am not complaining - just trying to point out what life is really like for many "normal" people. Am not sending this for some "dodgy estate" - my friends and I would be classed as "typically middle class" by most people's definitions. Life is simply not as rosy as all seem to think.

think that there is nothing wrong at all with shouting verbal abuse at their partner, or beating them, or controlling their movements my point is that just about everyone knows that physical abuse is wrong but many do not see shouting/emotional abuse/controlling as wrong. Eg for many frineds who do not work - the money is seen as belonging to OH, not to them.

As to why - in my case OH was fine when we first met, fine when we had first baby - only became so abusive when things got really stressful with my going back to (home based) PT work (as I am trying to get my life together) as this requires him to help more with kids etc, and so we now row and he becomes abusive.

Re people wanting to be in relationships etc - my point is that it is really easy to end up in a position where you are financially dependant on your OH - I had to give up my career as we could not both find work in the same county (let alone city) and so wanting kids and wanting to live together one of us had to give up. He earnt more than me. Once you are out of work it is very hard to get back in - I now work PT but v unsociable hours and/or from home.

I only know one person who thinks their money belongs to their DH. And she is a wet drippy lettuce of a doormat and the wife of a friend of DH's.

I would be very concerned about my social circle and the norms within it if I knew many more.

Jilly - I don't understand people who don't share money and see it all as theirs - especially when they have children. But whenever there is a thread on here about money, there are always lots of people who say they keep their money separate with both contributing the same or a proportion of money to meet the household expenses.

I even remember 1 poster saying she had saved up her money to be able to "afford" to go on maternity leave and still contribute her "share".

So clearly a lot of people do see their DH's money as his.

I think a lot of people with experience of abuse realise that if someone hasn't learned those lessons by adulthood then, in the majority of cases, they are unlikely to do so and all you can do is protect yourself by removing yourself from the situation.

They seem to think that a 'good woman' can change them-perhaps some of the traditional love stories give this idea?
Certainly I come across women whose husbands 'won't let them' and it is almost a badge of pride.

I am reading a book at the moment which is fairly typical. The man isn't physically abusive, but he is controlling. A typical incidence is that she has arranged to meet him at 1pm to go to an exhibition. She is 100% sure it is 1pm, she wrote it in her diary, when he was there. She arrives on time, he is in a mood and insists she is 30mins late. She argues this out but he is RIGHT-he insists he is RIGHT. They view the exhibition-nothing she says or does is right-she tries to appease him. After about an hour he makes a comment that shows he is coming out of the mood-she is pathetically grateful and even more so when they go home to bed-proof she is loved.

I think -you wet woman! Why did she stand for it? She could have said briskly -'Im sorry but it was 1pm, if you are going to be moody you can view it alone-I will see you later when you have got over it-I'm not going to let you take it out on me if you get things wrong'-and go. No need to be aggressive or confrontational -just go. Later on ask him 'whatever was all that about?' (I dare say there would be no fiction with common sense!)

Exotic fruits of course that is how we should deal with people like that.

But to do so requires enormous reserves of confidence and self esteem and an ability to be able to walk away from a relationship.

I have that NOW but it has taken 20 years and three abusive relationships to learn those lessons. But I was so scared about being single that I put up with crap I would not have accepted for one second from a friend or work colleague.

Fwiw I would estimate the proportion of crap and abusive relationships at about 20%. so certainly not the norm, but a sizeable minority.

To answer your point from 10.04 in response to my comment about women investing in themselves: your point about university is not a good one. I will be 46 in two weeks' time and I am from the generation whose parents (in my case) were not keen on daughters going to university. I didn't/wan't "allowed" to go. I still got a job and now have a really very good one with an above average income.

Neither you nor your friend are "stuffed", you appear to have determined that if you have to work you don't want change. I imagine you'd both get the house and alimony if you don't work now if you were to divorce. Frankly, it sounds as if you're happier to put up with the situation rather than compromise or stand on your own two feet.

I haven't read past that bit yet so perhaps I am being a little harsh.

OH was fine when we first met, fine when we had first baby - only became so abusive when things got really stressful with my going back to (home based) PT work (as I am trying to get my life together) as this requires him to help more with kids etc, and so we now row and he becomes abusive

Just a thought from that last post OP - If the kids are still young, if OH works long hours with a long commute, if being 2 working people at home leads to a continual, chronically stressful juggling act then maybe this is more about sorting out roles/responsibilities at home and getting some help with household chores / childcare etc to give youboth some breathing room.

Or, he only chose to become abusive when the situation at home no longer suited him and he wants things back how they were...

I am genuinely confused as to what you want from the members of this forum, OP.

If you want understanding about how it can feel to be in an abusive relationship, then you have it in bucketloads from others who have been there, and from those who have the empathy to use their imaginations a little.

If you want acknowledgement of how difficult it can be to find a way out of an abusive relationship and how relevant financial, emotional and social constraints can be, you have that acknowledgement many times over.

But if you want people to simply accept that it is just too hard to walk away from an abusive relationship, and to stop advising people to do so, you are not going to get people to do that. There are too many members of this forum who are living proof of the fact that it is possible to get out of this situation, and to be frank, I can't possibly imagine any of them reading another woman's story of an unhealthy relationship and thinking "better not bother telling her what I think as it is just too hard and abuse is more common than most people think anyway."

It's just not going to happen. And that is a very, very good thing.

I agree- lots of posts here just encourage people to walk which is not always the best solution.
Everyone behaves badly at times when under pressure etc and I think that most normal people will put up with a lot before they walk.Domestic abuse is a different thing and I can see leaving is perhaps best if that happens more than once.
But if in balance two people get along in a way that makes both more happy than unhappy, you accept the bumpy bits as part of marriage.

My husband is a good guy but when he loses his temper it is not pretty but I get that he has a temper that he struggles to manage and he would never ever be physical so I find that an acceptable flaw.he afterall has to put up with my multitude of flaws.

I think maybe the people who have very high expectations of how a partner should be must get through a lot of partners and sometimes end up on their own.

I think we can all be inappropriate with our partners at times but these moments do not always add up to abuse.

have you read the whole thread cherry?

Cherry we are talking about abuse here, the OP has called it abuse. Everyone has acknowledged that losing your temper once in a while is normal but long term disrespect and controlling behaviour isn't.

livingontheedge - If you are over 25, supporting yourself for 3 years or married you get all your uni fees and all your living expenses through the student loans company. I did it and most of my degree course did it

I agree a lack of chocie can seem rosy when in an abusive relationship that hovers close to someone's perception of what is OK- eg swearing not hiorting, a personal thing no doubt.

I love Dh and we're of a muchness with what we want and can take in a marriage but years OK it came close to breaking up through his MH issues and the future really didn't look good- homelessness, wasn;t going to meet anyone as no babysitters and no real likelihood I would meet someone who could have coped with DS1's (SN) needs anyway. I was absoluely acutely aware that the abrr was set lower for 'worse in that out' than if I ahd been likely to get a house, some cash or had babysitters and family close by.

Is that what you are saying?

WTF?

first sentence makes no sense. Sorry.

I agree that if you think your chances of happiness are limited by lifestyle or income it can make a relationship more likely to be stuck with when it hovers close to the boundaries of what is OK>

But I was so scared about being single that I put up with crap I would not have accepted for one second from a friend or work colleague

Maybe this is the answer-get women to think that they can get through life without a man.
Maybe that is where I am strong. I don't see the need to have a man for the sake of it-I was quite prepared to never marry. When I was widowed I would have gone through life as a single parent, if I hadn't found a man who was right for me- and even if he was right for me I would still have walked away if he didn't love my DS.
If you want sex you can have it without a permanent relationship, you can have a DC without a partner, you can earn your own living. When you couldn't do any of these things I can see why people got entangled-they needed the meal ticket. They don't now -and they don't need to settle for less than the best.

Totally agree exotic.

But what worries me is that this 'need' seems to some extent hard wired and to some extent pushed on us by society at large. My daughter was entranced by all the Disney princess stuff aged only about two or three - and I have had it made very clear to me by quite a few people that I am to be pitied becausei don't have a man.

These are quite powerful forces, particularly if you are not lucky to have the kind of inner resources that you display and/ or your upbringing didn't encourage you to be independent.

It needs to start young-there is pressure on girls to be popular and have a boyfriend to be successful. (I don't know how you do it).

It does annoy me when people shout ''leave him'' because it is so much more difficult to leave an abusive partner just like that than it is to leave just because you are bored etc. i have been ridiculed on the relationship threads for considering staying with my abusive ex. Those who shout ''leave him'' should then support the women instead of ridiculing her if it is not her first impulse. I have been told I am desperate by certain folk when in reality I was just frightened to leave.

I think maybe the people who have very high expectations of how a partner should be must get through a lot of partners and sometimes end up on their own.

cherrysoda, I've got through a lot of partners and have ended up on my own. The reason for that isn't that my expectations of partners were too high, but they were too low. In consequence I married men who were waving red flags from the beginning - but I didn't see them, or didn't think they mattered, and thought I could love them enough to make it all right, and ... well, you know how that story goes.

What I didn't do was go "Er, no, matey, nobody treats me like that!" and put on my walking boots. I should have.

As for "ending up on their own"? When you're this disillusioned, this tired, this shocked that you settled for so little love, living alone is a blessing. I need to get a new set of values. That can't be done in a hurry - and, even if it takes to the end of my life, it's worthwhile.

I'm happier like this than worrying about what he'll think, what mood he'll be in, whether I've forgotten anything, why I feel so anxious ... etc.

Garlicbutty, I have extremely high standards and have been married (happily) for twenty years.

Just goes to show - high expectations get good results!

Oh ... you thought my first line was my premise!
No, I was quoting cherrysoda and pointing out her errors.

Expecting a partner to treat you with kindness and respect does not equal high expectations IMO. I would never settle for an unkind, disrespectful man just because I didn't want to end up alone, I'd much rather be alone.