to think that the average MNetter has a pretty rosy view about life in the "average" relationship

[livingonthedge]

Have been lurking for a while now and have seen several threads from (usually) women who live with men who shout, swear at them or manipulate them. Replies are invariably "this is abuse so leave him".

I agree that it is abuse but am not sure about the advice or that it is as uncommon as some make out. I think that (sadly) many (usually) men (sometimes women) have real anger management issues or control issues and that the partner gets the brunt of it.

A quick poll of a friends - one with OH who frequently yells verbal abuse; one "has to have sex every day" (or OH "loses it") and one who has no access to money (just housekeeping) and has things like time to bed and to get up dictated by OH. All stay because they look at the alternative and decide to put up with it.

If someone has a career which pays enough to cover the childcare; or if they are so wealthy that they can come out of the relationship with enough to put down a reasonable deposit on a house; or alternatively if they could get social housing then maybe it is a real alternaitve but for a lot of women I do not think that the desicion is that clear cut. Life in a hostel or refuge is not something that they want for their children. In many areas getting social housing with no obvious bruises or proof of abuse isn't that easy.

"supprt from family or frends" assumes that your family agree that the relationship is abusive and that you have friends that can help. My family would not consider it abuse (note that I am not saying that it isn't abuse - I thnk that it is - but my parents would just say that women have put up with worse etc - ie would not help me (my sister was in this position and was not helped). Friends (as above) are in similar relationships and so cannot help (can't see their OHs allowing it :) ).

Am not complaining - just trying to point out what life is really like for many "normal" people. Am not sending this for some "dodgy estate" - my friends and I would be classed as "typically middle class" by most people's definitions. Life is simply not as rosy as all seem to think.

Ninky. Yes. You're right. I think I'm going to leave this thread now (oh and thanks Hully for that cwtch earlier)

There are refuges. There is help out there. You can choose not to do this, and that is a choice.

So your DH knows how to behave living, snd puts on a good show in public?

i can only go by my own experience and standards and I wouldnt stay for one moment in a relationship where someone swore at me, let alone raised their hand.

Thats just me though.

"I'm at a bit of a loss as to what you want." Quite, Shirley

OP are you really looking for people to tell you that yes, you're right, sometimes its so hard to leave someone the ONLY option is to put up with the behaviour your OH exhibits? I don't think that's going to happen on here :(

So rape in marriage has now been 'officially' declared WRONG for TEN YEARS and yet the penny hasn't dropped for the abusive men in your village?

just how stupid and dangerous are they?

Twenty, Spero

oops. Simply arithmetic was never my strong point.

TWENTY YEARS!! TWENTY FUCKING YEARS!!! THAT IS A GENERATION!!!

You are making me really cross now op.

have been away reading this thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1300189-to-think-that-Gordan-Ramsey-makes-verbal-abuse-intimidation-seem-acceptable

interesting different opinions from posters there :)
you say you have very unsupportive parents, which means at some times in your life you must have had to fend for yourself...But now, it seems very hard for you to imagine it's possible to overcome some of the barriers you are describing
was easier when I was younger as no kids. Also life was far easier - my parents were not well off so I got a full grant and went to uni and never had to go back - was hard as everyone else left for the holidays and I didn't have any where to go but there was more PT work around and you could get husing benefit as a single person so I just lived in a bed sit and worked in a pub at night and cafe in the day over the summer. Cannot do that with 3 children. Childcare is prohibative.

The children will all be at school at some point.

If you are in the same boat with your friends, why not consider getting together and helping each other out?

If you left your husbands, they would have to pay child maintenance and probably spousal maintenance at least for a few years.

You could do it if you wanted to. If you NEEDED to badly enough. Thousands do.

But you've made a deal with the devil and you want to tell yourself its ok. Fair enough, but don't kid yourself about the likely impact on your children. Make sure you have thought thru all the implications of these deal.

And I will never, ever accept that it is down to the 'media' to educate men to not be abusive. If they don't know it within themselves that is quite frightening.

Is this saying a little abuse is tolerable because the alternative would take a bit of effort and hard work?

I am finding this thread really uncomfortable reading, OP. I am trying to work out the gentlest way to say what I want to say, as I have massive sympathy for the position you are in and don't want to make you feel worse.

But I do feel very uncomfortable with your approach to this issue - it feels like you are trying to normalise it, and to some extent excuse it, because that makes it easier for you personally to deal with. I haven't been on the receiving end of domestic abuse, although I have come across many long-running instances of domestic violence through work, so I can't truly understand what it feels like to be in that situation. But not having experienced it myself does not in any way negate my view that domestic abuse is wrong and should not, under any circumstances whatsoever, be tolerated or excused or minimised.

Yes, there will be women who feel utterly trapped and unable to leave their abusive partners due to fear, the remnants of love, fear of being alone and unable to cope, financial dependance, lack of family support etc. But just because it isn't as straightforward as "leave him. Oh OK then, off I go." does not mean that people should stop giving that advice when it is clear that someone is in a situation that they should not be expected to tolerate.

Of course there are situations where someone simply wants to vent about a one-off argument, rather than an abusive relationship as such. In those circumstances the advice to "leave him" is not appropriate, but to a great extent it is the responsibility of the person posting to make it clear that they are simply ranting about a one-off situation, and needing advice on how to deal with it, rather than letting people draw their own, much murkier, conclusions.

But unfortunately many, many people do post about ongoing situations where it is abundantly clear that the abuser is not going to change, possibly even that the victim is not strong enough at that time to force a change. The sad reality is that the only realistic and respsonsible advice that can be given is "leave him". And it is not as simple as that - people aren't saying "leave him" as a punishment for the abuser or as a way for the victim to "win" the situation. "Leave him" is shorthand for "get your children away from this unhealthy situation", "find yourself again", "realise that you have many other options", "don't allow yourself to be beaten up", "don't take the risk of this escalating" and most importantly "you deserve to be happy".

99.999999% of men understand fully that it is not acceptable to be anything other than loving and respectful to their partner. It's not complicated. They don't need to understand labels such as "emotional abuse", "verbal abuse" etc - they just need to have a basic understanding that if you love someone you aren't unkind to them. They don't need help to understand this. There may be underlying issues that they do need help with, but they aren't going to seek that help unless they have the basic understanding that they owe respect and love to their partner. If they don't have that understanding then nothing is going to change them except their partner leaving them, and perhaps not even that. These men do not deserve to be with someone if they are not willing to take steps to turn themselves from a danger to those close to them into a decent and supportive human being.

I am very, very uncomfortable with the tone of the opening thread. It is, to a great extent, seeking to prevent people from responding to victims of abuse in a robust and zero-tolerance manner. Unfortunately that is the only way to respond to many of these situations. Better that people overeact in relation to a non-abuse situation than that they respond too softly to a cry for help from an abused woman.

If a man was shouting at his wife and then told me "Oh but I see it all on tv" I would assume that man had special needs of some sort which made him unable to distinguish a set-up reality show from real life. A lot of programmes show people shooting each other, people planning murders, mothers abusing their children but no one would accept that seeing these things on tv is a valid excuse for doing them in real life.

Living you say that in public your DH comes across as a good husband and father, which means he knows exactly what is expected of a good husband and father but he chooses not to do those things in private. That makes him a nasty horrible person who would rather have his own way and suit himself than make his wife and children happy. I don't think any adverts or public awareness campaigns would change that. You have already tried to talk to him and he has called you a "neurotic woman." He'd rather put you down and make you feel like you're crazy than actually listen to you.

I agree that leaving a relationship and starting a new life, especially with children, is incredibly hard. However, I strongly believe that even the poorest family can give children a great life if the family is loving and stable. No amount of money will make up for a child having to endure seeing his or her parents being horrible to one another all the time.

op, why don't you save or print this thread off and read it again in a few weeks, particularly what BertieBotts and kungfupanda says.

They have said it all, there is nothing more that can be said I think.

I'm off because this is tipping me over into being rude and abusive myself, and that clearly isn't going to help you or get through to you.

I'm sorry you are in this situation. I hope you manage to make changes in the future. Kindness and respect are the bedrock to every relationship worth a damn.

Something I did want to add before I got carried away with my ridiculously long post.

As an adult I now know that my mother was in an abusive relationship with my father. As far as I am aware he never raised a hand to her and he never shouted at her in my presence. However, I now know that he did the following:

1. Kept her permanently short of money, including lying about their finances. This led to her struggling to keep working when she knew she had cancer that was likely to be terminal - it was. It might not have been had she sought treatment sooner, or let her family know what was going on.

2. Threatened her with things - he would take me out of my private school (almost full scholarship but some payments from my father) if she didn't do what she wanted, or he would leave her, or sell the house. Also lied about things - pretending he was going to lose his job or that he might not be able to pay the mortgage. This kept her in a permanent state of anxiety.

3. Refused to allow her to let me have contact with his first wife's family including my half-brother.

4. Put her down verbally in front of their friends.

5. Refused to have any more children after me and stated that it was because he thought they would be "crippled" too - I had a badly deformed foot and ankle that were fully corrected by the time I was 12.

6. Never told her when he was going to be late home for social reasons and expected her to wait up and cook him dinner.

7. Expected her to fall in with his plans at all times.

8. Treated her so badly during their engagement (long periods of non-contact, arguments, threatening to break off the engagement etc) that her brother flew home from Ireland where he was in the RAF to find him and "have words". He was followed a few days later by my mother's former boyfriend, a friend of my uncle, who begged her not to marry my father. She had a nervous breakdown not long before the wedding. The family doctor also threatened to track my father down and tell him what he thought of him.

She stayed with him until she died at the age of 40. This was despite her family living nearby and making it clear they would support her in leaving him and setting up home on her own with me. For whatever reasons, I suspect simply blind love, she chose not to do so. This meant that she spent the final 14 years of her life with someone who simply could not have loved her or valued her. Someone who, I now think, wanted a wife to run his life, rather than a partner to share it.

If MN had been around when she was alive I would like to think that people would have said "leave him", rather than saying "oh well, things might be worse if you leave him." It might even have saved her life.

This thread is heartbreaking. Thanks to survivors for telling their stories.

Fantastic, moving advice.

I just hope to god none of us ever stop dishing it out to those who need it.

OP - I understand what you seem to be trying to say, but I'm afraid I disagree.

I've just been reading a paper on Complex PTSD: A Syndrome in Survivors of Prolonged and Repeated Trauma.

It includes domestic abuse, emotional, physical and/or sexual and describes the effects on the victims. The abuser is TRYING to make the victim feel helpless, and as though they have no choice. The abuser's are usually very, very skilled at this.

Everyone has a right to be their own person, free of the manipulative control of others. An abuser is trying to DAMAGE the victim and the ongoing effects can be extremely distressing and traumatic. Those that have been abused unfortunately show a significant increase in the risk of self harm. That is why there are so many agencies out there to help victims escape, and to help them rebuild a free life.

Please take care of yourself, and your children.

Kungfu: that's such a moving post, thanks so much for sharing it.

In my very limited experience, women tend to befriend similar women and men befriend similar men. So saying that you are "just trying to point out what life is really like for many "normal" people" is a very misleading statement. You polled your friends.

I could equally poll my friends. One is a bachelor who makes the most terrific friend and 'uncle' to my kids. Another is in a loving relationship with his wife and 2 kids with equal respect from both sides; another is in a long term relationship with his partner and they are both fiercely independent yet loyal and committed to each other - I could name more from friends who are strong willed women who have completely equal relationships with their partners.

That is because I am strong willed and have a partner who wouldn't dare treat me with less than full respect and I do likewise, therefore the friends I have are all similar personalities. And that is a mixture of middle class and very working class.

That does not mean that I see the world through my experience only. That would be very short-sighted of me and I think it's short-sighted of you to base your assumptions of what is normal on your circle of friends only.

If you were a decent friend you would be offering your full support to your female friends and not trying to convince them that their unhappy lives are normal. There is a law governing this country which states that domestic abuse is illegal. Domestic abuse is not just sexual and physical violence but emotional too. Because it is illegal that should give you a clue as to how 'normal' that behaviour is considered.

Unfortunately it is very difficult to help someone-they seem to be 'blinded' by love-if 'everyone' is telling them not to marry you can be sure that 'everyone' is right and yet they go ahaead. When 'everyone' tells them to leave they find every excuse not to and they are still trying to get the love and approval of the abuser. There must be hidden signals where these people find each other.
I would just look them in the face and say 'calm down-I am not even going to bother speaking to you in that mood'. When/if they were ready to talk I would look them in the eye and say 'why did you do that? what do you think it achieved? Have you always had these rages?Do you feel insecure? etc etc etc I have never had to do it because I never meet that type.

I try and keep out of reltionship threads because I never understand why people think they love a person who doesn't treat them with respect.

Akissisnotacontract - the scary thing is that if you had asked me even a few years ago if it was an abusive relationship I would probably have said "don't be silly" or "well, he wasn't a great husband but...." or "he had his faults but abuse? No way."

Time (and to some extent MN) has made me drop the qualifications and the excuses. It was wrong then and it is wrong now and I hope people carry on saying so.

There is a MASSIVE assumption on this thread that abuse stops when you leave.

I left and am one of many that can say that it has not. The methods might have changed but the abuse continues.

it feels like you are trying to normalise it, and to some extent excuse it, ....domestic abuse is wrong and should not, under any circumstances whatsoever, be tolerated or excused or minimised

I agree and am not trying to normalise it - am just saying that it goes on way more than people think and also that people minimise the effort needed to leave and do not realise just how hard it is. Eg the alternative would take a bit of effort and hard work - not "a bit" please - for many a huge amount so why not recognise this?

Have been accused here of trying to normalise my situation - am not - have my plans - will sort myself out - but it seems to me that here many are trying to make themselves feel better about the fact that some have far harder choices (eg because of no parental support) by pretending that leaving is dead easy and just "a bit of effort".