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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that the average MNetter has a pretty rosy view about life in the "average" relationship

279 replies

livingonthedge · 13/09/2011 22:37

Have been lurking for a while now and have seen several threads from (usually) women who live with men who shout, swear at them or manipulate them. Replies are invariably "this is abuse so leave him".

I agree that it is abuse but am not sure about the advice or that it is as uncommon as some make out. I think that (sadly) many (usually) men (sometimes women) have real anger management issues or control issues and that the partner gets the brunt of it.

A quick poll of a friends - one with OH who frequently yells verbal abuse; one "has to have sex every day" (or OH "loses it") and one who has no access to money (just housekeeping) and has things like time to bed and to get up dictated by OH. All stay because they look at the alternative and decide to put up with it.

If someone has a career which pays enough to cover the childcare; or if they are so wealthy that they can come out of the relationship with enough to put down a reasonable deposit on a house; or alternatively if they could get social housing then maybe it is a real alternaitve but for a lot of women I do not think that the desicion is that clear cut. Life in a hostel or refuge is not something that they want for their children. In many areas getting social housing with no obvious bruises or proof of abuse isn't that easy.

"supprt from family or frends" assumes that your family agree that the relationship is abusive and that you have friends that can help. My family would not consider it abuse (note that I am not saying that it isn't abuse - I thnk that it is - but my parents would just say that women have put up with worse etc - ie would not help me (my sister was in this position and was not helped). Friends (as above) are in similar relationships and so cannot help (can't see their OHs allowing it :) ).

Am not complaining - just trying to point out what life is really like for many "normal" people. Am not sending this for some "dodgy estate" - my friends and I would be classed as "typically middle class" by most people's definitions. Life is simply not as rosy as all seem to think.

OP posts:
JillySnooper · 14/09/2011 20:27

Eek, sorry garlic!

garlicbutty · 14/09/2011 20:29

This is an odd thing. I've noticed that those who like to criticise the "Chuck Him Out Brigade", of which I'm a member, assume that we don't know how to improve communication, generate shared interests, show more consideration, and so on.

Nothing could be further from the truth. We are the ones who've kept relationships going with husbands who wouldn't know honest communication if it ran them over. We're the ones who created enough of a marriage single handedly that our friends and families were fooled. We're the ones who've been on courses, been to Relate, read the books and - subsequently - been in therapy.

If you want relationship advice, you'd be pushed to find a better source than Mumsnet's "Harridans". So when they gently suggest your relationship may be a dud, it's probably worth reading.

livingonthedge · 14/09/2011 20:30

he only chose to become abusive when the situation at home no longer suited him and he wants things back how they were... this one - ie have discussed downsizing etc, he wants to work, wants me to support him.

re "what do I want from this thread" - didn't realise that I needed to want anything from anyone to talk here - was just talking - workin gmy ideas out in myhead as much as anything else.

you get all your uni fees and all your living expenses through the student loans company you do not qualify if you already have a degree - I have a PhD but not in a practical/vocational subject - you cannot retrain any more.

OP posts:
garlicbutty · 14/09/2011 20:30

s'ok, Jilly :) Love your name!

ViviPru · 14/09/2011 20:33

"re "what do I want from this thread" - didn't realise that I needed to want anything from anyone to talk here - was just talking - workin gmy ideas out in myhead as much as anything else."

OP I'm curious, have your ideas altered at all as a result of this thread? And theres no subtext to that question, I'm just genuinely interested, not looking to trip you up.

BelleDameSansMerci · 14/09/2011 20:36

living I have been a bit harsh on this thread. I find myself, however, liking you and wishing things were better for you. That's all...

Spero · 14/09/2011 21:08

Well I think you have got to want responses if you post here, if you are just getting your thoughts out, you could write it on a bit of paper, talk to yourself etc, etc.

The value of this kind of forum is the response surely? And I get the impression you were hoping for a different kind of response.

NorfolkBroad · 14/09/2011 22:14

I do know what you mean about life being difficult for many people but i would ALWAYS rather be on my own (both with dd or when I was not a mum) than be with the wrong person. I am fortunate to have a supportive family though.

livingonthedge · 14/09/2011 22:19

I think you have got to want responses if you post here I do want responses :) that is the point - I just meant that I did not have a preconception as to what kind of response that I wanted - did not have some idea of what I wanted to be told - just wanted to know what others thought.

Vivi - yes - a bit - I think that I am clearer in my mind about what constitutes abuse

OP posts:
exoticfruits · 14/09/2011 22:29

Expecting a partner to treat you with kindness and respect does not equal high expectations IMO. I would never settle for an unkind, disrespectful man just because I didn't want to end up alone, I'd much rather be alone.

Certainly I would rather be alone.
I wouldn't call it high expectations-I would say it was expectations that you wouldn't get anything less.

HereBeBolloX · 14/09/2011 22:37

"I think maybe the people who have very high expectations of how a partner should be must get through a lot of partners and sometimes end up on their own."

Yes, probably. And there is nothing wrong with being on your own, it can be bloody brilliant actually. Once you've got through the first couple of years where you're adjusting, it's potentially plain sailing, depending on your priorities, ideas, etc.

Related was this remark: "but people do have to live with men with anger issues, depression issues, drink issues etc."

Um, no, no they don't actually. No one has to live with anyone. They can live on their own and enjoy their lives.

But for that to be achieved, women have to stop buying the myth that they absolutely have to be in a heteronormative monogamous relationship with a man, that without that, they are only half-members of society, that without that, they are lesser beings who need to be apologetic about being in the world. They need to know that living without an adult man in the house, is not only possible and practical, but also comfortable and enjoyable - just as comfortable and enjoyable as living with a nice man, but just different. Like Indian takeaways are delicious and thai food is delicious, but in different ways and neither is superior to the other, they're both valid choices. Abusive men are terrified that women might find that out, which is one of the reasons they hate the idea of feminism, incidentally.

And here's another comment that I noticed: "All I am trying to say is that I do not think that verbal abuse/controlling behaviour is as rare as some make out and I think that many, many people are puttign up with it because the alternatives are equally unpleasant when you have no support from family/friends and that having no support from family/friends is probably quite common for individuals in verbally abusive/controling relationships."

Apart from the alternatives being equally unpleasant (that's what abusers want you to believe, and that's what many women believe because they have a vested interest in continuing in their denial about their horrible relationships, but it's not true), I go along with that in that yes, I think abusive relationships are much more common than society is willing to admit. But that doesn't mean they're OK. Women do not have to put up with this shit, there are other alternatives and there is nothing as joyful and fulfilling as having self-respect and freedom. Abusive men are terrified by the thought that women on here are telling other women that, that's why there are so many trolls round here, desperate to disrupt our sharing of our experience, desperate that women like the OP continue to rationalise their situations unsupported by other women telling her that no, it doesn't have to be like that and the alternative isn't just as bad, it is unimaginably better. Imagine where those abusive men would be, if every woman in the country decided that she would only live with a man who treated her with respect and kindness. They'd never fuck again and deep down they know that, which is why they troll all over mumsnet trying to get us to STFU and stop talking to each other.

HereBeBolloX · 14/09/2011 22:37

Sorry that turned into a rant.

Whatmeworry · 14/09/2011 22:48

If you want relationship advice, you'd be pushed to find a better source than Mumsnet's "Harridans

Assuming, that is, that you want the response "he's a bastard, leave him" to any situation :o

Spero · 14/09/2011 22:56

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

HereBeBolloX · 14/09/2011 23:00

But it's not "to any situation", is it whatmeworry.

It's to abusive situations.

And lots and lots of people, are deeply invested in denying that abuse is abuse.

cecilyparsley · 14/09/2011 23:07

'women have to stop buying the myth that they absolutely have to be in a heteronormative monogamous relationship with a man, that without that, they are only half-members of society, that without that, they are lesser beings who need to be apologetic about being in the world. They need to know that living without an adult man in the house, is not only possible and practical, but also comfortable and enjoyable'

yes yes!! wot she said Grin Grin

Whatmeworry · 14/09/2011 23:29

^Whatmeworry, have you read any of this thread?

Or are you just a massive tool^

Spero, if you had read this thread you'd see I have responded already a few times.

Morloth · 14/09/2011 23:39

"I think maybe the people who have very high expectations of how a partner should be must get through a lot of partners and sometimes end up on their own."

Yes, cause it is much better to be with any man as long as you don't end up alone. Of course, what have I been thinking all these years? Here I was assuming I was an actual person, who is fully capable of creating my own life and being happy on my own terms. When in fact having a man is what is most important.

DH knows that the door would hit him so hard his arse would catch on fire if he ever spoke to me the way many men seem to think is appropriate. I assume that is one of the reasons he does not do so. Apart from of course the fact that he is a good person who loves me.

OP, from what you have posted here your husband is not a good person and he does not love you. You get one turn on the wheel that is life, just the one, why waste it with a prick?

livingonthedge · 14/09/2011 23:54

A minor example - have just said something to OH to which he replied crossly "what are you moaning about - I allow you to work don't I?". I point out (calmly) that I do not need his permission to work. He points out that I do need him to look after the children - he earns enough to afford childcare and works social hours. So basically I do need him to agree to look after the children if I want to work. Yes I could leave but I still could not then work. Yes they are his children but I suspect that if I left him with them withou this agreeing then he'd change the locks on me and I'm not sure where I'd stand then legally as I'd be the one who walked out so to speak.

Am not saying that this is right - far from it - just saying that this is how you can slip into this way of being. I never started out thinking that I'd need permission to work.

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 15/09/2011 00:21

Then he enables you to work, by providing childcare (assuming the cost would be prohibitive otherwise), not allows you. I find the notion of an adult "allowing" another to do something strange.

BertieBotts · 15/09/2011 00:24

Well not strange exactly, but in this context I think it is a little. You don't need permission to work, so he can't withdraw that permission, it doesn't exist. Childcare would presumably be difficult/expensive to find if he wasn't there to look after the DC, but if you could find something which worked, or moved to a different job, it would always be allowed. So he's enabling you to do this particular job which would be difficult otherwise.

Does that make sense? Sorry for two similar posts in a row. Posted and then wanted to clarify my thoughts.

ShirleyKnotFrotGrot · 15/09/2011 00:27

herebe

Struggling here to say anything other than ... I love you.

Brilliant post.

cecilyparsley · 15/09/2011 00:41

@livingontheedge

'what are you moaning about - I allow you to work don't I?". I point out (calmly) that I do not need his permission to work. He points out that I do need him to look after the children - he earns enough to afford childcare and works social hours. So basically I do need him to agree to look after the children if I want to work. Yes I could leave but I still could not then work. '

oh he's weilding his economic power there isnt he!! Angry

perhaps you should charge his for the use of your womb in incubating said children for him

cecilyparsley · 15/09/2011 00:44

...I mean I'm assuming that he attained his high paying job in part because your career and not his had to take a hit when you had children?

jellybeans208 · 15/09/2011 07:33

'"I think maybe the people who have very high expectations of how a partner should be must get through a lot of partners and sometimes end up on their own."'

I dont think this is true i think its more if you grew up with a dad who was always there for you, hands on, did anything for his wife, looked after the family, was never unkind, swore or horrible then you will easily go out an find the same man for yourself straight off. Its like an unconcious thing in your mind that leads you to a good man (with me went out with my dads exact copy aged 16-18 then at 18 pretty much similar personality man again and married him as a teen)

It also works the other way round and the ones who dont have a decent dad/male role model usually are attracted to men the other way round which causes the problems.

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