to consider taking my DD out of a perfectly good school to HE?

[FigsAndWine]

I am considering taking my 8 year old DD out of school and home educating. My reasons and reservations are detailed here

I've read a bit about HE and I'm feeling more and more that I want to do this. The two people whom I thought would be really negative about this (my best friend and my DM) have been very positive about it and think it would benefit DD. My DP thinks I'm a bit nuts (but then he does anyway... ) but will support my decision. My exDP (DD's dad) is also in a good postion to HE, as he is self employed and therefore flexible with his time, and is very involved with DD.

The school DD is at is a good one. It is over-subscribed, good with outstanding features according to ofsted. I just think that DD would thrive more out of a school environment. It will be a squeeze financially to afford extras (trips, classes, activities), but we could manage. I work part time and could fit HE around this.

The reason I'm posting in aibu is because I know all the reasons why I want to do this; I guess I want to hear some opposing opinions so I can feel whether they are enough to make me change my mind.

Fire away!

A lot of shift workers don't have a morning routine.

Perhaps op dd will work shifts

I accept your point juuule. I just get the impression that the motivation for OP is a bit, well, more pandering to DD than anything else. Where does it end?

Whether or not it is a good thing-HEing shouldn't be entered into to take away they stress of mornings, to provide a way of life and friends for Mum, or to get into museums etc when quiet, or so that you don't have to argue with DC!
It should be-does it suit your DC and are you capable of doing it.

OP, what worries me is that you say you suffer from depression. What if it all goes a bit pear-shaped (for whatever reason, and I'm not saying it will) - you'll be incredibly stressed and it might have a very negative effect on your own health. I think you have to consider your own side of it too. A mother with depression can be horribly worrying for a child (I know this first hand). I don't know anything about HE, so I can't really comment on that - I'm just worried about you taking on that level of responsibility with the associated guilt should anything go wrong when you are already depressed.

I hope I'm not being offensive here - it's hard to say what I mean clearly. My experience with my mother's depression was that she beat herself up about a lot of things that hadn't even registered with me or my sister. I think HE would involve even more opportunity for guilt, because you would feel solely responsible.

Further ramblings...

Mumbling, that's what I was trying to say. Somehow before the child labour laws/education acts society survived even though hardly any children went to school. (Were they not socialised, then?) Not that I'm advocating mines or cotton mills, but the norm used once to be that children learned from parents, tutors, and trade masters, not in huge herds of other children. The Elizabethan grammars were horrible places, too, with many beatings and some pedophilia, and so were most 19th century schools.

I think we now deify 'school' and bend ourselves all out of shape for it. If you have the stomach for American right-wing thoughts, you might read a book called Radical Homemakers on this subject. We've somehow persuaded ourselves that it's a good deal to give up our own relations with our children to other people because they are 'expert' - works soooo well with health visitors...

Ok, admittedly I have a Phd in humanities and an u/g science degree (premed - don't ask), and dh is a trained accountant - so I haven't met very many teachers I honestly thought hugely more expert than I and dh except in the little tricks of GCSE exams. I think teachers are awesome at crowd control, and it's a breathtaking skill, but with my dcs I don't have to do that. I know too that many have good qualifications - including many I myself have taught - but I also know many where love of their subject has been annihilated by paperwork, bad behaviour, beaurocracy, deadweight colleagues, unambitious kids.... and looking back over my own schooling, I only had two really good teachers. Two were enough, but it's not a lot to be going on with. I hope I can inspire my dcs, as they inspired me.

otoh sieglinde, before schools were common, there would be more children around to socialise with, because the other children in the village wouldn't be at school all day either

though I don't think this is an unsurmountable obstacle to HE; there are plenty of HE groups and with the internet etc they should be easy to find

you just have to be prepared to be a little more organised than your average medieval parent

but I think it sounds like the OP is thinking this through very thoroughly and will do a good job

Yes, cory, but children also worked, especially at harvest time - hence the long summer holidays! - and most were apprenticed from 10 or so, earlier sometimes. The basically did the scutwork, too. Animal care, animal feeding, cleaning. They didn't play all day, though they did play at times. What I'm saying is that a pattern we would see as dreadfully limiting was once normal. And I agree about the OP and about HE and socialisation.

What I was questioning is whether academic learning, or practical learning for that matter, is best carried out or delivered to a large group of children chosen by calendar age. The old village schools and dame schools were a huge age-unrelated room, where each child did individual lessons - more like Kumon, in a way.

We could go on to ask if children's social skills are best fostered by being herded into year groups, and often gender groups ... surely this is very unlike the world of work? A good side of HE is that children don't so congregate - so dd might interact with children older or younger than herself more.

I think that it is so sad that a good teacher is so undervalued-they have inspired so many DCs and are worth their weight in gold!

When did I say that, exoticfruits? I don't think I did. Just that many were limited by the current system and by large-group teaching.

TooImmature2BDumbledore said "OP, what worries me is that you say you suffer from depression. What if it all goes a bit pear-shaped (for whatever reason, and I'm not saying it will) - you'll be incredibly stressed and it might have a very negative effect on your own health. I think you have to consider your own side of it too. A mother with depression can be horribly worrying for a child (I know this first hand). I don't know anything about HE, so I can't really comment on that - I'm just worried about you taking on that level of responsibility with the associated guilt should anything go wrong when you are already depressed. I hope I'm not being offensive here - it's hard to say what I mean clearly. My experience with my mother's depression was that she beat herself up about a lot of things that hadn't even registered with me or my sister. I think HE would involve even more opportunity for guilt, because you would feel solely responsible."

You're not being offensive in the slightest, and I think you are making very good points. I am a person who feels guilty and anxious very easily, and I think that it is likely that I would worry that I wasn't doing enough/doing too much/pushing her too hard/not directing her enough... etc etc. I am stable on medication at the moment and have been for some time, but there is always the possibility of a relapse, obviously.

A huge generalisation sieglinde-there are good schools, bad schools, schools where you need crowd control, schools where you don't, schools that teach some lessons with all ages, small groups etc etc. In the same way that you can generalise about HE-they have some things in common and are hugely different in others.

just curious op - haven't read all replies - but what does your dd think of he - does she want it?

My ds best friend was HE and they re 17 now and he is just like the rest of them apart from I think he is more capable at doing certain things for himself as his mum did certain 'life skills' with him which I thought was a bit odd when they were 12/13 but now can see how self sufficient he is. He is an amazing skate boarder which is how they met and so if your dc keeps up an outside interest I think it does help Good luck with it.

ll31 I've said several times; DD wants to HE. I wouldn't even consider it if she didn't.

Lequeen, HE parents don't need to be able to teach a particular subject. If their child wants to learn a particular subject or gain a qualification in it then the parent will find someone able to teach them - that's why they used you.

As for socially inept children unable to mix with peers and parents who "thought that their child could live no better life than to spend 90% of their time with their parents." I don't recognise this as being typical of the HE families I have come across.

"Because the social side of school is massively, massively important"

I don't agree with that. One of my children completely missed out secondary school and has had no problems going to college.

" and simply cannot be duplicated in a HE environment, no matter what you try and do."

In some instances this might be a godsend for some children and their families. Not all children benefit from the social side of school. In fact, your statement "socially crippled their children, probably for life." could also apply to some schooled children.

I also don't agree that home-educating to reduce stress on a child and their family is a bad thing. As long as a suitable education is being provided for the child then the environment being stress-free could aid the education.

I have been reading through the thread. The particular aspect which would concern me is the socialisation:

• In school children socialise independantly of their parents. They make friendships which perhaps their parents wouldnt like. Possibly parents then become friends with the other parents but IME 9/10 not.
• In school children get to take small responsibilities eg playground monitor, library assistant or whatever.
• In school children progress through with a large number of other children of the same age. Friendships evolve over time. There are opportunities for small independences eg being allowed to walk to school alone or with friends.

IMO all of these are good and positive things which are hugely important especially for a primary school age child to grow and develop ready for the rigours of secondary education.

• Can HE provide the same? Arent the friendships at HE groups essentially the friendships of the parents as well? Where's the independence? Where are the inappropriate friendships (also good for children!)

• Are there the opportunities for taking small responsibilities where there is a parent hovering nearby?

• Where are the groups of friends which swirl and change as children grow?

IMO it is irrelevant that the OP's daughter wants to be HE. I am sure that my precocious little madam of a DD would have liked to be HE for the 1:1 attention. The thing is, I'm the grown up, it's my decision not hers.

In all its imperfection I think that school is the best place for the vast majority of children. That the OP's daughter doesnt like the discipline of school and doesnt want to go is IMO even more reason why she should go to school.

Frankly, leQueen, I don't think the HE children you know typify anything or anyone.

Interestingly, lots of Oxford HE kids go on to the local FE college, which is where my son is now. He spent the afternoon setting up a Creative Writing club with another student there, coincidentally also HE and from NZ; the third organiser has a more conventional school background. He will most likely spend the evening talking to his best friend from his previous school about their rock band, and most of the weekend alternating prep with seeing other friends. And yet I would say he's not everyone's kind of kid - he's lovely, of course, but his willingness to tell you about how you actually prove Pythagorus's theorem might make some blanch a bit. I shall not go on about dd - suffice to say that she too has a busy, social weekend ahead.

IME, HE kids and parents are much like other kids and their parents - some nicer than others. I've said before that the ones I've taught at Oxford were mostly fine; one kid was a bit troubled, but I've had tense kids from all kinds of schools.

I knew some HE families when I was younger and was quite impressed by their social skills etc. However I was an academic child and loved being taught. I did think of HE my child through the first few years as we start school so young here but I've changed my mind as I think socially she will benefit from being part of the local community and we will still do all the fun outdoor stuff at the weekends/ after school.

As a secondary teacher the grammar school I taught in was amazing. Even as an adult I could be inspired by lessons I observed. The girls really were lucky to be there and if my daughter is good enough to go there I would far rather she got the chance to be educated by specialists in each subject to the depth they are at that school than at home.

I think there is a stronger argument for primary than secondary in my opinion. (Unless all secondary options really are scary and full of guns...)

I HEd my ds for 18 months - he has a strong/obstinate personality and we clashed - reguarly.

It was the right decision at the time - school was failing him. He went back to school and now enjoys it although still struggles academically.

The HE scene was not good for him though - there were quite a few families but unfortunately a good deal of those were rather "odd". The others were the wrong age - ie they were far too old or far too young. He needed boys he could play football with on a regular basis but we couldnt find local kids that he could do that with.

He was part of a football team and went swimming etc but it wasnt enough.

On his first day back at school the teacher said "quite suprising really he is sociable"

I struggled as well - I had 2 younger children as well and it definately had an effect on me - the constant arguments and no break from him. As much as i love him he is a pain at times and Im glad when he went back to school.

I don't think your daughter is old enough to make that decision, Figs. She's a young girl. She will see the side of HE that you have shown her. Just by the fact you are there with the HE families, it's a false situation. You would be spending a hell of a lot of time with her, just the two of you, with you trying to get her to do things that she may not enjoy doing.

And for all children as for most adults, the most fun in learning is when you learn alongside someone else. Children learn so much from each other and she wouldn't be able to do that.

OK so you could spend all day every day with the other HE families - why not just send her to school if that's the case?

You say the tone of my posts has changed, Figs. I'm just getting exasperated, I think.

I'm not totally against HE. If my child had been bullied and I needed to pull her/him out of school immediately and wanted to move to a more suitable school (which is what I would have done) then yes, I would have been happy to HE for a short while. The goal, though, would always be to be back in school within the shortest amount of time.

Not read the entire threads but ...

So what if your DD wants to HE ... It is not her decision.

There seems no real reason to HE except to make your life easier in mornings.

Your depression could be exacerbated by HEing. That will be stressful.

The moods etc that your DD has are typical behaviour! They doesn't appear to be anything out of the ordinary with her behaviour.

You will be withdrawing your DD from her friends, her social life, and routine.

Can't work out the benefits, just can see lots of negatives.

Sorry, YABU!

I think one danger with HE is that because most of us only know a small number of HE children, it is incredibly easy to generalise from those very few examples.

Just for example; I knew a sprinkling of ex-HE students when I was at college, I now know maybe a dozen or so from where I currently live. Out of that small number, I can pick out a surprisingly large number of really strikingly beautiful people - probably some of the best looking teens and young adults that I have ever met.

Does that mean that HE-ing your child guarantees that they will be startlingly attractive - clearly not - its just a statistical quirk. As it happens, none of them had any noticeable lack of social skills (actually, I am PMSL at the thought of some of the teenagers I know lacking social skills).

But that is probably because I know a lot of hippy types who tend to HE because they dislike the school system, rather than - for example - because their child/ren have SNs which make coping in the school system hard. (Just to be clear, I'm not blaming HE for lack of social skills in the latter case, but saying that some children who will always struggle with socialising sometimes end up out of school because they are being chronically failed by the system.)

HE has all sorts the same as school. They are HEed for a variety of reasons. There will be those who were bullied but there will also be the bullies whose parents won't accept it and removed them. There will be school refusers, those who just can't cope with the school system. Added to that there will be those whose parents hated school and those who are anti schools and all they stand for.
My friend HEed and her DC went back at 6th form-they had no trouble, but their closest friends were DCs who went to school. My friend got cold shouldered for that one and gradually had less to do with the HE community-she didn't want to keep her DC separate. There were definitely the odd in her area-very odd parents and DCs with some very funny stories. There were of course the sensible too.