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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To find it unsettling that mum's still threaten to smack childrens bums in public?

358 replies

kitya · 31/08/2011 19:24

Ive just been to the nail parlour and this perfectly nice mum in her early twenties told her daughter that if she didnt sit still she would pull her knickers down and smack her bum. I thought that went out with the 70's? I didnt know where to look. She was telling me about starting uni and everything but, I couldnt concentrate and what she was saying after that.

OP posts:
troisgarcons · 31/08/2011 22:50

There's smacking (hand tap) and there's smacking (whalloping with serious intent)'

I'd be a liar if I said I'd never smacked but I have to say on the whole it's when I've lost control of the situation. And all it's done is upset me, upset him, everyone is upset.

However you also get the knee-jerk smack - Eg a child has slipped your hand and put them selves in a dangerous situation, you grab, you smack, you hug tight and are grateful they are safe. And everyone is crying all over again.

Thankfully those days are long gone.

shocked2 · 31/08/2011 22:54

YADNBU!

I was at nursery in the early 70s and I remember a lady (must have been the teacher) with a child, pants down, draped over her lap - she must have given him a smack. It is not the smack I remember but him being draped over her lap. For years I thought I must have imagined this memory but I clearly can't have. To have ones pants pulled down is DEEPLY HUMILIATING.

I was smacked as a child - on the bottom - not often, with clothes ON I hasten to add. Still found this humiliating though. Once I remember being slapped on the face Angry and this was for having raised my eyes to the ceiling in a conversation I was having with my parents - I still think I was simply looking upwards, but even if I had been expressing boredom/disrespect WTF?? This is another memory I don't quite believe as my parents, though quite strict, were nice parents.

I have three kids myself now and have only once smacked one of them (on the bottom, clothes on!). Would not do it again. Not saying I am perfect though. A lot needs sorting out in my family dynamics (between my children and my dh and I).

BimboNo5 · 31/08/2011 23:01

Smacking a child doesnt make someone a shit parent Hmm just because people do not parent the way you do does not make them shit...

luweewu · 31/08/2011 23:03

From a nook wriiten in the 50's

"Law-abiding people," Dubois had told us, "hardly dared go into a public park at night. To do so was to risk attack by wolf packs of children, armed with chains, knives, homemade guns, bludgeons . . . to be hurt at least, robbed most certainly, injured for life probably ? or even killed. This went on for years, right up to the war between the Russo-Anglo-American Alliance and the Chinese Hegemony. Murder, drug addiction, larceny, assault, and vandalism were commonplace. Nor were parks the only places ? these things happened also on the streets in daylight, on school grounds, even inside school buildings. But parks were so notoriously unsafe that honest people stayed clear of them after dark."

I had tried to imagine such things happening in our schools. I simply couldn?t. Nor in our parks. A park was a place for fun, not for getting hurt. As for getting killed in one ? "Mr. Dubois, didn?t they have police? Or courts?"

"They had many more police than we have. And more courts. All overworked."

"I guess I don?t get it." If a boy in our city had done anything half that bad . . . well, he and his father would have been flogged side by side. But such things just didn?t happen.

Mr. Dubois then demanded of me, "Define a ?juvenile delinquent.? "

"Uh, one of those kids ? the ones who used to beat up people."

"Wrong."

"Huh? But the book said ? "

"My apologies. Your textbook does so state. But calling a tail a leg does not make the name fit ?Juvenile delinquent? is a contradiction in terms, one which gives a clue to their problem and their failure to solve it. Have you ever raised a puppy?"

"Yes, sir."

"Did you housebreak him?"

"Err . . . yes, sir. Eventually." It was my slowness in this that caused my mother to rule that dogs must stay out of the house.

"Ah, yes. When your puppy made mistakes, were you angry?"

"What? Why, he didn?t know any better; he was just a puppy.

"What did you do?"

"Why, I scolded him and rubbed his nose in it and paddled him."

"Surely he could not understand your words?"

"No, but he could tell I was sore at him!"

"But you just said that you were not angry."

Mr. Dubois had an infuriating way of getting a person mixed up. "No, but I had to make him think I was. He had to learn, didn?t he?"

"Conceded. But, having made it clear to him that you disapproved, how could you be so cruel as to spank him as well? You said the poor beastie didn?t know that he was doing wrong. Yet you indicted pain. Justify yourself! Or are you a sadist?"

I didn?t then know what a sadist was ? but I knew pups. "Mr. Dubois, you have to! You scold him so that he knows he?s in trouble, you rub his nose in it so that he will know what trouble you mean, you paddle him so that he darn well won?t do it again ? and you have to do it right away! It doesn?t do a bit of good to punish him later; you?ll just confuse him. Even so, he won?t learn from one lesson, so you watch and catch him again and paddle him still harder. Pretty soon he learns. But it?s a waste of breath just to scold him." Then I added, "I guess you?ve never raised pups."

"Many. I?m raising a dachshund now ? by your methods. Let?s get back to those juvenile criminals. The most vicious averaged somewhat younger than you here in this class . . . and they often started their lawless careers much younger. Let us never forget that puppy. These children were often caught; police arrested batches each day. Were they scolded? Yes, often scathingly. Were their noses rubbed in it? Rarely. News organs and officials usually kept their names secret ? in many places the law so required for criminals under eighteen. Were they spanked? Indeed not! Many had never been spanked even as small children; there was a widespread belief that spanking, or any punishment involving pain, did a child permanent psychic damage."

(I had reflected that my father must never have heard of that theory.)

"Corporal punishment in schools was forbidden by law," he had gone on. "Flogging was lawful as sentence of court only in one small province, Delaware, and there only for a few crimes and was rarely invoked; it was regarded as ?cruel and unusual punishment.? " Dubois had mused aloud, "I do not understand objections to ?cruel and unusual? punishment. While a judge should be benevolent in purpose, his awards should cause the criminal to suffer, else there is no punishment ? and pain is the basic mechanism built into us by millions of years of evolution which safeguards us by warning when something threatens our survival. Why should society refuse to use such a highly perfected survival mechanism? However, that period was loaded with pre-scientific pseudo-psychological nonsense.

"As for ?unusual,? punishment must be unusual or it serves no purpose." He then pointed his stump at another boy. "What would happen if a puppy were spanked every hour?"

"Uh . . . probably drive him crazy!"

"Probably. It certainly will not teach him anything. How long has it been since the principal of this school last had to switch a pupil?"

"Uh, I?m not sure. About two years. The kid that swiped ? "

"Never mind. Long enough. It means that such punishment is so unusual as to be significant, to deter, to instruct. Back to these young criminals ? They probably were not spanked as babies; they certainly were not flogged for their crimes. The usual sequence was: for a first offense, a warning ? a scolding, often without trial. After several offenses a sentence of confinement but with sentence suspended and the youngster placed on probation. A boy might be arrested many times and convicted several times before he was punished ? and then it would be merely confinement, with others like him from whom he learned still more criminal habits. If he kept out of major trouble while confined, he could usually evade most of even that mild punishment, be given probation ? ?paroled? in the jargon of the times.

"This incredible sequence could go on for years while his crimes increased in frequency and viciousness, with no punishment whatever save rare dull-but-comfortable confinements. Then suddenly, usually by law on his eighteenth birthday, this so-called ?juvenile delinquent? becomes an adult criminal ? and sometimes wound up in only weeks or months in a death cell awaiting execution for murder. You ? "

He had singled me out again. "Suppose you merely scolded your puppy, never punished him, let him go on making messes in the house . . . and occasionally locked him up in an outbuilding but soon let him back into the house with a warning not to do it again. Then one day you notice that he is now a grown dog and still not housebroken ? whereupon you whip out a gun and shoot him dead. Comment, please?"

"Why . . . that?s the craziest way to raise a dog I ever heard of!"

"I agree. Or a child. Whose fault would it be?"

"Uh . . . why, mine, I guess."

"Again I agree. But I?m not guessing."

"Mr. Dubois," a girl blurted out, "but why? Why didn?t they spank little kids when they needed it and use a good dose of the strap on any older ones who deserved it ? the sort of lesson they wouldn?t forget! I mean ones who did things really bad. Why not?"

"I don?t know," he had answered grimly, "except that the time-tested method of instilling social virtue and respect for law in the minds of the young did not appeal to a pre-scientific pseudo-professional class who called themselves ?social workers? or sometimes ?child psychologists.? It was too simple for them, apparently, since anybody could do it, using only the patience and firmness needed in training a puppy. I have sometimes wondered if they cherished a vested interest in disorder ? but that is unlikely; adults almost always act from conscious ?highest motives? no matter what their behavior."

"But ? good heavens!" the girl answered. "I didn?t like being spanked any more than any kid does, but when I needed it, my mama delivered. The only time I ever got a switching in school I got another one when I got home and that was years and years ago. I don?t ever expect to be hauled up in front of a judge and sentenced to a flogging; you behave yourself and such things don?t happen. I don?t see anything wrong with our system; it?s a lot better than not being able to walk outdoors for fear of your life ? why, that?s horrible!"

"I agree. Young lady, the tragic wrongness of what those well-meaning people did, contrasted with what they thought they were doing, goes very deep. They had no scientific theory of morals. They did have a theory of morals and they tried to live by it (I should not have sneered at their motives) but their theory was wrong ? half of it fuzzy-headed wishful thinking, half of it rationalized charlatanry. The more earnest they were, the farther it led them astray. You see, they assumed that Man has a moral instinct."

"Sir? But I thought ? But he does! I have."

"No, my dear, you have a cultivated conscience, a most carefully trained one. Man has no moral instinct. He is not born with moral sense. You were not born with it, I was not ? and a puppy has none. We acquire moral sense, when we do, through training, experience, and hard sweat of the mind. These unfortunate juvenile criminals were born with none, even as you and I, and they had no chance to acquire any; their experiences did not permit it. What is ?moral sense?? It is an elaboration of the instinct to survive. The instinct to survive is human nature itself, and every aspect of our personalities derives from it. Anything that conflicts with the survival instinct acts sooner or later to eliminate the individual and thereby fails to show up in future generations. This truth is mathematically demonstrable, everywhere verifiable; it is the single eternal imperative controlling everything we do."

"But the instinct to survive," he had gone on, "can be cultivated into motivations more subtle and much more complex than the blind, brute urge of the individual to stay alive. Young lady, what you miscalled your ?moral instinct? was the instilling in you by your elders of the truth that survival can have stronger imperatives than that of your own personal survival. Survival of your family, for example. Of your children, when you have them. Of your nation, if you struggle that high up the scale. And so on up. A scientifically verifiable theory of morals must be rooted in the individual?s instinct to survive ? and nowhere else! ? and must correctly describe the hierarchy of survival, note the motivations at each level, and resolve all conflicts."

"We have such a theory now; we can solve any moral problem, on any level. Self-interest, love of family, duty to country, responsibility toward the human race ? we are even developing an exact ethic for extra-human relations. But all moral problems can be illustrated by one misquotation: ?Greater love hath no man than a mother cat dying to defend her kittens.? Once you understand the problem facing that cat and how she solved it, you will then be ready to examine yourself and learn how high up the moral ladder you are capable of climbing.

"These juvenile criminals hit a low level. Born with only the instinct for survival, the highest morality they achieved was a shaky loyalty to a peer group, a street gang. But the do-gooders attempted to ?appeal to their better natures,? to ?reach them,? to ?spark their moral sense.? Tosh! They had no ?better natures?; experience taught them that what they were doing was the way to survive. The puppy never got his spanking; therefore what he did with pleasure and success must be ?moral.?

"The basis of all morality is duty, a concept with the same relation to group that self-interest has to individual. Nobody preached duty to these kids in a way they could understand ? that is, with a spanking. But the society they were in told them endlessly about their ?rights.? "

"The results should have been predictable, since a human being has no natural rights of any nature."

luweewu · 31/08/2011 23:03

bah book!!!

WinterIsComing · 31/08/2011 23:05

Once I remember being slapped on the face and this was for having raised my eyes to the ceiling in a conversation I was having with my parents - I still think I was simply looking upwards, but even if I had been expressing boredom/disrespect WTF?

Not on. And you know, sometimes a look away from people who are being intimidating is all you can do. And a perfectly natural human response to pressure.

Some people may find these threads boring and hide them as is their right rather than complaining but I think it's good to share experiences and to understand and learn. Not everyone reads the Relationships board. It's very serious there and so it should be.

Few people would start a thread about having a trusted parent take their underclothes down and smack them in public but it's good that people can post about such things, and to be told that it isn't right, and not their fault.

shocked2 · 31/08/2011 23:08

I have friends who smack their children - I don't think they are bad parents at all. One of them in particular I think is a totally great mother. Also, I do not think I am a great parent simply because I don't smack. In fact in lots of ways I would like to be a better parent than I am. However, with regards to smacking (of the non humiliating clothes on variety) what I question is the obvious use of physical force in a position where the child is totally powerless.

shocked2 · 31/08/2011 23:11

Thank you winteriscoming, I think my slap across the face was totally not on as well Angry Angry.

4madboys · 31/08/2011 23:16

not unreasonable, i was shocked by some 'parenting' i saw/overheard today, 2yr old being given fruit shoot..fine but she wanted the little lid and started to kick up a fuss about having it, so the mother gave it it her saying "fucking have it you fucking little shithole, hope you fucking choke on it" me Shock and my friend also Shock like seriously WHO talks to anyone like that, let alone a two year old?!!

GypsyMoth · 31/08/2011 23:23

Wait til they slap back..... What then??

GypsyMoth · 31/08/2011 23:24

And it IS shit parenting....... It's lazy and sloppy and when it doesn't work what do you move onto..... 2 slaps? a harder slap?

TheDreamWeaver · 01/09/2011 00:11

I have smacked my children, rarely though, as I felt SO bad afterwards, and there are other ways of disciplining them. I've done it when I was being lazy, or when dangerwass involved and I was bloody terrified.

But I would NEVER threaten my kids in public with corporal punishment, and if I hear a parent threatening/swearing at their kids in public, my first thought is "poor child, if that's how the parent behaves in public, what on EARTH is life like behind closed doors?"

spudulika · 01/09/2011 00:18

I've smacked. I don't agree with it and I don't want to do it, but I find my children unmanageable sometimes and get a bit desperate. Afterwards I think 'well,that was crap wasn't it'.

It's only since I've had three that I've smacked. Managed to get dd through the first 8 years of her life, ds1 through the first 5 years, and ds2 through the first 4 years before raising a hand to them. Sad

When I see people threatening their kids in public I feel sorry for everyone involved because I know it usually means the parent is feeling beyond stressed.

spudulika · 01/09/2011 00:20

Sorry - should add, that I'd never pull pants down to do it. Yuck.

themildmanneredjanitor · 01/09/2011 00:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

randommoment · 01/09/2011 00:36

I smacked twice, both times to prevent worse disaster. Once because dd1 was having a tantrum right by the fire and about to send the fireguard flying, and the other time dd2 was so busy trying to kill her sister that both were about to fall off a narrow pavement into a busy road. Result, instant shocked silence and enough time to get to a safer place. Smack one was on lower arm (nearest flailing limb at the time) and smack two on upper leg (ditto). What 4madboys saw and heard shocks me far far more.

goodasgold · 01/09/2011 01:33

I have that instcint to protect as well so if my child was having a tantrum right by the fire.

I would pick her up and move her.

To me that is so important that a smack might shock her out of it, but actually moving her out of it solves the problem.

Sorry about my English.

InTheNightKitchen · 01/09/2011 01:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

needsanswers · 01/09/2011 04:50

i havnt read the whole thread, but i think you are abu because it was none of your business, i dont mean this to come off harsh but its got nothing to do with you how some parents may or may not choose to punish their children? do you even have kids? if you do then you no how easy it is for children to REALLY push your buttons and how frustrating it can be if they refuse to listen to you, i personally dont see anything wrong with a smack on the bum, the pulling the pants down thing i however dont agree with, i also dont think you should ever smack a child with anything other then your hand, and you should never leave a mark on them.
there is a 10year gap between me and my two younger brothers ages 16 and 11, growing up my mum used to smack me if i was out of line, and i tell you what, i never once swore at my mum, talked back to my mum, never said no to my mum and i would do chores if she asked me to, i did well in school and and had an after school job, my brothers on the other hand ( the smacking law came in when they were young) are little brats, and do the opposite to all the things i just listed above, and i generally think its because she doesnt discipline them the way she disciplined me. dont get me wrong she never smacked me anywhere but on the butt and never left a mark etc but it really made the difference.
This is my opinion and everyone is entitled to their own opinion please do not bad mouth me because of it, i respect all your opinion so ask for the same respect.

needsanswers · 01/09/2011 04:54

ILoveTIFFANY i think your comment is rediculous, just because iv smacked my daughter probly about 10times over the last 3 and a half years i am a lazy and sloppy parent? get a grip

needsanswers · 01/09/2011 04:59

lol 1 last thing i just wanted to make clear that i was in nooo way meaning that all children that arnt smacked are disrespectful brats like my brothers, i was just saying from personal experience i think the way they speak to my mother etc is disgusting, not that the parents on here that discipline their children in other ways chilldren act in that way

CheerfulYank · 01/09/2011 05:39

I don't think a tap here or there (on the bottom or hand) is going to do any real harm, but pulling pants down, slaps across the face...not on IMO.

I tell the seven year old boys that I work with that I'm going to "take them out back with a whupping stick" occasionally...we all laugh. Blush

Inflames · 01/09/2011 06:34

YANBU - I hate hate hate it. Watched a mum wallop her daughter the other day, round the head, while screaming 'Don't fucking hit me'... Hmmm wonder where she learned to hit then?

That said I think most parents who smack are more moderate in terms of an over clothes smack on bum.

But it's not something I will do - don't like it and don't think it's effective. Personally.

Whatmeworry · 01/09/2011 07:24

Just to get back on track the mother in the OP did not smack her child to discipline her, she merely threatened to. The OP did not like the threatening.

But clearly this is just yet another smacking trawl.....

usingapseudonym · 01/09/2011 07:32

It really really upsets me to hear comments like this in public.

My mother was certainly a bit trigger-happy with slaps :( It's only since having my own child that I really wonder what she was thinking.