To find it unsettling that mum's still threaten to smack childrens bums in public?

[kitya]

Ive just been to the nail parlour and this perfectly nice mum in her early twenties told her daughter that if she didnt sit still she would pull her knickers down and smack her bum. I thought that went out with the 70's? I didnt know where to look. She was telling me about starting uni and everything but, I couldnt concentrate and what she was saying after that.

RHP, most of the people round where I live, not only admit it, but cheerfully assert that if you don't do it, it's because you're an idiot.

It's not seen as a source of shame, it's seen as normal. I dn't think people would be inhibited about admitting they do it, on the contrary, in RL I'm inhibited about asserting I don't.

I also don't understand what you mean by there being far too much of children expressing themselves today in schools

I think you do akshully :o

Well why did you understand my post that way maypole?

I didn't say that

I think you're reading things into my posts that aren't there.

Why?

No whatmeworry, I don't.

Do you mean that reception children shouldn't be encouraged to paint their moods?

Or that year 2's shouldn't discuss philosophy?

Or that school councils shouldn't meet?

Or that Year 6's shouldn't present to younger years, or take class assemblies?

Because that's what I understand by children expressing themselves at school.

I have made that threat (it's the ultimate threat) but NEVER carried it out because the warning is enough to stop dc doing whatever thing they are doing. I do follow through with discipline (ie time out or removal of a toy) at home so dc know I mean what I say and have never pushed it too far.
I can categorically say I wouldn't actually bare their bottoms in public and smack them I have no wish to humiliate them or in fact hurt them! Not really sure why I say it, I think it is more of a situation that if I say it then dc know they are going too far. Interesting thread though - despite the crazy rioters angle.

Oh cripes spare me from the "express yourself" brigade. Yes, it is good to challenge authority and stand up for yourself and others when the authority is truly in the wrong. But most of the time, yes, I think kids do need to "keep it zipped and do as they're told", and if they did, my country's school ratings would not be in the toilet.

And yes I do work with children, and yes, even in the past 5-10 years things have changed. So many of the students need praise for everything they do. They literally cannot go on to the next task until they feel they have been properly validated for the previous one, even if it's the simplest thing. And if there's a problem, or the student gets upset about the teacher's decision, the parents are up there immediately demanding to know, basically, why the teacher doesn't realize how special and sensitive their little darling is.

I have smacked my son. He would not stop hitting/kicking/scratching me and his father when he was upset. I explained to him why it wasn't nice, we talked about it several times, I tried removing things, time-outs, etc. But he kept doing it, because he wanted to and he knew it really upset us. Finally I took him aside one day when we were talking and said "you have been doing such-and-such a lot, and I've told you very nicely to stop. You are not listening to my words. So the next time you hit mommy or daddy, I'm afraid I'm going to have to spank your bottom." His eyes got huge and we talked about it a bit.

A few days later he tested me on it, I spanked him (with clothing on!), he was very upset, and has never done it again.

I don't feel the slightest bit guilty, actually. But I would never, ever say I was going to hit him in the face or pull his pants down, etc. And I try very hard not to shout (and usually succeed) and never swear at him.

I don't think people who don't smack are lily-livered "oh no darling, please don't kick the nice man in the face" parents, but nor do I think parents who dole out the occasional smack are monsters or partake in "lazy vile parenting."

YY CheerfulYank, all of it and especially pointed regarding the praise for very little that's so common now. We've become a country that celebrates and expect mediocrity in everything.

But cheerfulyank, literacy and numeracy rates in this country were lower when corporal punishment was practiced, than they are now.

So I think the notion that hitting children leads to better literacy and A level results, is not borne out by real lived experience. Literacy rates are higher now than they were in the sixties when teachers happily punched their pupils with impunity.

And what bit of the "express yourself brigade" do you disapprove of? Children being invited to discuss the feelings of characters in a story? Children writing letters to new pupils at their school, telling them about the school? Children being asked for their response to Mr Darcy's proposal to Elizabeth Bennett? Children being asked for their suggestions as to what to do to influence their parents not to park on zig zag lines outside school? Children being asked how they can save fuel and water within schools? Which expressions offend you?

We are all mediocre when all is said and done. In the grand scheme of the universe and finite nature of everything. It is the human condition and teaching children that joy in life can be found in simpler things is okay. Biggest, best and more does not always lead to contentment. Mediocrity is actually okay

And it is terrible the idea that children shouldn't express themselves. That is dysfunctional and abusive

None of those "expressions" offend me, Bollox. :) I was talking about the parents who allow their children to interrupt far past the age when they should be, parents who feel that everything their child does or says is perfect and no one should be allowed to say otherwise because their child is "expressing themselves."

Of course I think my son is the most lovely fascinating child on earth, but I don't expect others to think so and I don't expect his teachers to treat him as such. When he goes to school it will be to learn.

I don't mean children should be "seen and not heard" for heaven's sake. But there is a difference between wanting children to sit quietly in a corner for hours on end (which is abusive and unrealistic) and expecting children to be respectful and hard-working.

One of the children I nannied for was a brat, pure and simple. He talked back to everyone, he was ungrateful (his grandfather brought him a present once and the boy told him "I didn't want one of these crappy ones, I wanted a good one..."), he whined about having to do anything besides sit and play X-box or eat. Literally.

And when his parents would come back from his conferences at school they would complain to me that the teacher did not understand their DS and the way he "expressed himself", that the teacher didn't understand how sensitive he was , etc, etc. Every year for six years. You'd think that by that time they would have realized that perhaps the problem wasn't the teacher...

"parents who feel that everything their child does or says is perfect and no one should be allowed to say otherwise because their child is "expressing themselves.""

I obviously move in different circles to you

I literally have never come across any parent anywhere, who behaves like this.

YABU, perhaps pulling the pants down, no, but smack on the bum, definitely yes.
I don't do it often, but when it's called for it will being administered swiftly and sharply.

Lucky you! :)

Expressing themselves, What in the spoilt, unreasonable, delinquent manner?, I don't think so.
We all know where lax, or no discipline leads, disrespectful children grow into disrespectful adults.
I don't allow backchat, grumbling and talking back, and require at all times respect, not only to us their parents, but to adults and elders in general.
Beating children to a pulp should be not confused for discipline, two are different, and have different outcome.

Herebebollox I wholeheartedly agree with everything you are saying. cheerful Yank, I thought your country has always had an inclination towards doing as they are told and this is more where their problems lie? I don't equate learning to doing as your told or else!

Um, no, Goldenbear , not at all.

And I don't think learning is "doing as you're told or else" either, and didn't mean to imply that. But over time (the past generation or so) there has been this attitude of what really really matters in a child is their self-esteem, and there have been scores of educational programs designed to teach educators to help children feel good about themselves. The idea was that if the kids feel good, they'll do well.

This has proven to be a myth.

Of course I want my son (and every other person) to have self-respect and feel pride in his accomplishments, but I want them to be real accomplishments. Not "aren't you lovely, you didn't spit at me today", etc. Not a gold star every time he picks up a pencil. Not a sticker every time he completes a single worksheet.

What really really matters is that a child comes out of school well-educated and ready to fend for themselves and contribute to society.

Well, the US expects allegiance to the flag, investigative journalism is virtually non existant and you have children on death row. I would therefore argue that your country's problems are not due to liberal attitudes abound! i mean you can hardly argue your country doesn't dish out enough violence and this is why your in so much trouble!

Yes but to me an education is learning facts but also learning to cast a critical eye, this doesn't have to be in an obnoxious way but this is real learning IMO.

I have never worked at a school where students were required to say the pledge. It is within their rights not to, and some choose not to.

The last known execution of a juvenile was in 1959, and in 2005 the Supreme Court ruled that people could not be executed for crimes convicted while they were minors. So I'm not sure how many, if any, children are on death row.

I do not think, nor have I ever said, that my country's problems are due to "liberal attitudes". I was talking about the attitudes of some parents that I have witnessed and how they have led to problems in schools. Even more sad than the "oh my little darling would never" issue, of course, are the parents who just don't give a shit at all.

I agree with you 100%, I think children should learn to think for themselves and all these activities, etc, are leading to the death of creativity. I just think it should be done, as you say "not in an obnoxious way." My son knows he can always ask me "why" and I will explain things. I won't go over my reasons ad naseum and I won't argue, but I'm more than willing to discuss things with him of course.

CheerfulYank 100% agree with all you said in my view lots of adults scream about children rights with out making them aware of their responsibilities

I can't be doing with namby pamby parenting

I steer clear usually the parents who also have fussy eaters Ect

I personally don't care for being popular or my Childs friend I am dd mother not a mate
And the buck stops with me

Some things we can talk about but somethings dd just has to do

I don't go in for back chat, or sassing
You eat what your given and say please and thank you

I never have trouble getting a sitter or have issues with dds behaviour at school I don't smack myself but I do not go in for this

New age parenting
And if others want to smack then fine but I do however feel if your still smacking past about 10 its a bit but each to their own.

goldenbear don't know where you live but hope it's not the uk like me, after all we can hardly slag off another country for how it deals with criminals when life here means you will be out in about 8 years.

As for children who kill, how about the Jamie bulger killers? Kept in comfort for 10 years then let out with new identities and one ends up back inside not long after. Although no one who worked with him was surprised as he was no where near rehabilitated

A lot of you really think in Daily Mail stereotypes, don't you?

What is "New Age Parenting"?

Why am I bothering to ask?