To find it unsettling that mum's still threaten to smack childrens bums in public?

[kitya]

Ive just been to the nail parlour and this perfectly nice mum in her early twenties told her daughter that if she didnt sit still she would pull her knickers down and smack her bum. I thought that went out with the 70's? I didnt know where to look. She was telling me about starting uni and everything but, I couldnt concentrate and what she was saying after that.

Discipline doesn't mean punishment or enforcement.It comes fro the word disciple and is about teaching a set of skills.Therefore being a parent is ALL about discipline.

i would like to point out since we, as a society became so child-centred touchy-feely parents, standards of behaviour and levels of respect have gone down amd i think unhappiness amongst children has gone up! This is compared to say 1950 and earlier

Spider,

Discipline does not mean "to teach a set of skills" in modern usage, according to the OED. That was its earlier (now redundant) meaning. Thanks for the etymology though. Please accept pedant of the thread award.

I am sure a school would do well if its website said we do 100% discipline in this school and nothing else!

Don't be ridiculous. What about the mods and rockers in the 50s? What about open homophobia and racism which was so common in previous decades? Violence and disrespect have always been around, it's just it used to be considered more normal. There's a lot more wrong with a culture which rewards selfishness and exploitation, which encourages instant gratification, wastefulness and greed. However you manage it if you can teach your children to reject these morals you're doing something good, in my opinion.

I do agree that discipline means to teach - and we do it constantly, that's why I think it's more useful to worry about how you interact with your child in general rather than the few instances that you need to punish them or impose a consequence or whatever.

Latrrygrills -total crap!!
skill sets are often called disciplines !eg karate is a different discipline to Aikido!

Hmm - just looked it up and you're right, larry - the OED specifically mentions that discipline includes punishment. However it also has this sub-meaning:

Activity that provides mental or physical training
the tariqa offered spiritual discipline
Kung fu is a discipline open to old and young

I think there was a lot more violence twenty years ago. I used to get beat up for having the wrong school uniform on.

When I used to go to football matches it was all constant fighting not like now thank god.

redglow Twenty years ago wasn't '1950 was it??
*
Bertie/Larry* It depends what dictionary you look in!!
this gives a very different slant

'dis·ci·pline
   [dis-uh-plin] Show IPA noun, verb, -plined, -plin·ing.

noun

training to act in accordance with rules; drill: military discipline.

activity, exercise, or a regimen that develops or improves a skill; training: A daily stint at the typewriter is excellent discipline for a writer.

punishment inflicted by way of correction and training.

the rigor or training effect of experience, adversity, etc.: the harsh discipline of poverty.

behavior in accord with rules of conduct; behavior and order maintained by training and control: good discipline in an army.

It doesn't matter what the actual word means anyway, the point I was making is that your behaviour in general to your children has much more effect, yes whether or not you punish and what for and how hard etc etc etc will have an effect but for the day to day stuff, speak nicely to them, listen to them, model good behaviour (no "do as I say, not as I do" unless it's something they will be able to do when they are older, like drinking) and allow them chance to explain themselves and you will get good results.

FWIW, I think the noun retains its old meaning in current usage but the verb much less so. How to discipline children is normally taken to mean how to correct bad behaviour, normally involving some form of punishment. I would not regard teaching my 2 year old how his new train set worked as "discipline" nor even explaining why he should not hit his brother.

I think that my post (above) is basically saying the same as Berties. Whilst the punishment element of discipline should not be overlooked, what one does with them the other 95% of the time is even more important. Children will not accept punishment from an adult that they do not love and respect. At that point all you have left is fear, which is never a long term winner.

I would definitely say that explaining why we don't hit is discipline, but probably not about the train set - because I have always taken discipline to mean teaching how to behave rather than teaching in general. However if I was showing DS how to help with the washing or we were playing a tidying-up game (yeah, he's still young enough to be tricked into thinking this is fun ) then that is discipline, also, because it is equipping him with skills that he needs for adult life, and showing him expected behaviours (to help around the house, to keep things tidy) - I don't see "discipline" as a negative or unpleasant word, it's just learning about how life is and how the world works and how DS, as a human, is expected to behave among other humans. Some lessons are fun or easy and others are hard, but it's all part of the same concept.

Actually I've just thought about this further and I think the train set teaching does have aspects of discipline too - you are spending dedicated time with your child, which teaches them that they are valued, and from this they learn that to give another your time says that you value them. (If you think this sounds silly, imagine a child growing up in a house where their parents never have time for them and imagine what that teaches them.) If they have asked you to show them how the set works and you've agreed then you are modelling listening and complying with reasonable requests. You are teaching them patience and concentration as you are going through a specific task. You are probably letting them try things for themselves, which gives them confidence, and praising/encouraging them when they experiment and get something right, and you're teaching them that it benefits them to follow instructions by showing them that they can succeed at simple tasks if they follow your encouragement/directions. If you're staying calm even if things go wrong with the set up you're modelling keeping your cool even if you are frustrated, if you speak politely to them asking "Please could you pass me that track piece? Thank you," you're modelling good manners, you are teaching them to communicate not only by talking but by showing, and then there is a whole world of educational value in reading the manual or the box, learning how the track fits together and how the train works (maths, physics) which probably isn't the same sort of discipline but is valuable in another way completely. And probably loads more - this is just what I came up with after musing on it for a couple of minutes while putting DS' dinner on.

larry- I agree that what you do the rest of the time is very important but fucking up 5% can still be damaging. As bertie says, you are teaching your child with every action, reaction, or lack of action. Therefore when you smack you are teaching them. IMO you are teaching them that you will physically hurt them, you are teaching them that you can't be trusted, you are teaching them that it is ok to hit others (especially if you are bigger and more powerful).
If we were having this conversation about an adult hitting another adult we would all agree that it is not acceptable to hit others, whether you are trying to teach them a lesson or not. So why on earth would it be acceptable to hit a vulnerably child?

Back to naughty spot vs smacking and what is more 'harmful'. It seems as though how upset a child gets determines how harmful it is. If a child isn't affected by the punishment given to them then it has not been effective.

An example:
Your child hits their playmate in a fight over a toy. You smack them on the hand. The child learns that if they hit, someone will hit them back.

In the same situation you have them sit to the side for a few minutes and then explain that we don't hit people because it hurts them and makes then feel sad. You then ask them to apologise.

The later is actually what happens when a person hits another person, and if we are teaching children to be adults or how to get on when they reach adulthood, then it is important that they know how their actions affect others. With the former, your child has also learned that if your not there or don't see then that there is no consequence to hitting unless you get caught.

What poster was it who said on another thread that when she was 15 or so, she'd called her mother a fucking cow or told her to fuck off or something? And her mother had never smacked her before but in that instance slapped her face in front of her friends.

I remember thinking good for her, actually.

It was me who said the intelligent comment too. Perhaps the wrong choice of word. Just because your buddies went to cambridge does mean they are good parents, in fact the arrogance that appears(from your post) to go to go along with this education probably means they are more likely to assume they are doing everything right because the are cambridge educated.
You will not find ANY current, well-respected childcare/parenting advice that advocates smacking children. If you didn't think you knew everything you might have picked up a book and found that out.

"tbh i find swearing, hollering, screaming and shouting at a child way more frightening & damaging to them then a quick smack on the bum for doing something potentially dangerous, after warnings."

I absolutely agree with this post from scrambledeggs. There are so many competitive parents on this thread all jockeying for 'best parent' medal. I wonder how many non-smackers are ardent-shouters and swearers, thinking nothing of it and congratulating themselves.

Why don't people mind their own business? Or better still - if they're really bothered and upset by it (as they keep saying they are) - do something - report it? But no... MN is the best place to 'sort it out'...

I'm sorry to laugh, But Bertie , are yoiu sure you haven't missed your vocation in life. I have no idea what job you do. But i bet its not the right one for you, based on last post !!!!!!

That's okay Oblomov still trying to figure that one out actually...

I agree. Its my shouting at the children, that I really don't like. No one shouts at me. I won't allow it. I wouldn't friggin tolerate it at work. Yet I shout at my children. how is that possibly acceptable ? My two boys cry, don't shout mummy. Not good.

trinot what makes you think someone who smacks their child doesn't explain why they did it and what the child has done wrong?

Or are you so up yourself and your wonderful parenting skills that you think only those parents that do it your way bother to explain what the child is doing wrong?

On the very few occasions I was smacked as a child it was explained to me why and what I had done wrong, not that I needed it explaining, i knew exactly what I was doing and that i shouldnt have been doing it but I was a little sod

On the whole, yanbu. Yesterday at the vets there was a mum in there with her son who wanted to look at the books but couldn't because he was strapped in a buggy. He didn't kick off or anything but she said, very loudly, 'do you want a cracked arse, or do you want it in your face?'

I admit to smacking though. I was wrong, I know. DD booted me in the face about 3 weeks ago, and I smacked her bum.

I do not threaten it, and certainly do not say I'll pull your pants down.

Actually I tend to shout when I'm tired/stressed/really cross too even though I don't like being shouted at myself and would feel really intimidated if for example DP did, so I think it's quite good when DS says "Don't shout, Mummy!" - I'm glad he has the confidence to ask me to stop, and it usually shocks me into realising that I am shouting, and I apologise in a non-shouty voice and usually we have a hug and then once he realises I'm listening to him he listens to me then. It works the other way around as well, he doesn't have the skills to calm down straight away, but he's not quite 3 yet, but he really does make an effort and usually after a few minutes he does just come spontaneously and say that he's calm now and/or that he is sorry.

even if you do explain why, you have still also taught them it is ok to hit people, especially if they are smaller and more vulnerable than you

I personally hate people who Molly codel their kids allow them to be spoilt, shout, run away spit or head butt their parents with no threat of discipline or boundires

I am more worried about that child than the one who get a slapped hand

Mitmoo, top tramp cannot smack any child in her class or tell them off or do anything apart from allow them to abuse her and walk out if she is likely
I would not be worried if I saw a teacher smacking their child.

Sadly as we have become more liberal discipline is is decline

I personally dislike this lurch towards the adult child role reversal that seems to be happening

Were the child tells the parent whats what

I even see it with really small children
a small boy was playing in our road his mum calls time to get in boy says to his mu no you get in, dad then see as she is just getting out of car shouts at boy to get in

Mum then says to dad don't shout at xxxx you will up set him

And that about sums up why schools are bad
Parents have no control
And the instances of add and such like is like 1000%

And to the person who said they don't believe in putting children in situations were they can't behave

Jesus wept

again- we are always going to disagree. It's a chicken/egg situation. I believe you were probably a sod because of the way you were disciplined and you believe you were naturally so badly behaved that the only way to control you was smacking.