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AIBU?

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Original poster

to loathe this sense of entitlement we hear/read/see everyday

332 replies

scuzy · 25/08/2011 14:16

the idea of some taxes is to pay into a pool for those in genuine need of some kind of benefits. but i am sick to death of people who feel that just because they paid tax for a certain amount of years they can now claim benefits just because they say "its their money". these people are making fraudulent claims but its justified to them because they have paid into the pot so to speak and now its their turn to give up working and relax.

if i hear "i am entitled to ..." one more time i'll smack someone!

we have become a nation of "entitlers".

even my own family ask why do i work x amount of hours when i coudl claim this that and the other. "you are entitled to you know"! er .... no i'm not.

OP posts:
wordfactory · 25/08/2011 23:27

ITNK I tink a lot of the working poor do feel very aggrieved about this and I think the comfortably off left were mad to ignore their feelings at the last elections.

It's fine for someone with a nice financial cushion to turn a blind eye to benefit fraud...but when I was a lawyer I can't tell you how many women came through the door who couldn't get a feckin' penny pit of their partners for the DC because they were on benefits and woeking cash in hand.

Blueberties · 25/08/2011 23:27

Tethers - I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about - none. I mean - none.

I just don't get you at all. From your weird wage analogy to Jeff - I have no clue what you are disagreeing with me about.

Your pay packet analogy was such tosh. The gov is an agency - the money is given in trust for it to spend for us, that's why MPs are our reps, and the gov reps of them. It's not like employer/employee when the money I receive is for services supplied and mine to do what I want with. The money the gov spends is still our money - it's spending it on our behalf.

The rest - I just haven't got a clue what you disagree with me about.

tethersend · 25/08/2011 23:39

Blue, I am disagreeing with your assertion that tax money is somehow 'yours' but not 'Jeff's'

I really can't make it any clearer than that, I'm afraid.

My pay packet analogy was to illustrate how money ownership changes. I made it quite a way back up the thread, so it's good of you to address it now.

The idea that tax is money given in trust for the government to spend for us implies that we retain ownership of it; this is precisely what you are castigating poor old Jeff for. If it's your money, it must be his, so why shouldn't he feel entitled to claim it back in benefits which he is not legally able to receive?

I have only one point; I have explained it in many, many ways. I'm not sure how many more times I can explain it, TBH.

tethersend · 25/08/2011 23:40

Just to clarify- this doesn't mean I think Jeff is entitled to claim. It means I think you are wrong to talk about 'your' tax money.

Blueberties · 25/08/2011 23:52

Nie that you agree your analogy to be utter tosh but sorry tethers do you really not understand this?

Because our reps in addition to have our money to spend in trust have been entrusted with making laws and our part of the bargain is to keep the laws while they spend the money according to the laws.

If someone's going to break the law and steal money from the state it's still my money - it's being held in trust by the government and spent on my behalf.

You're talking rubbish mdear. Nothing personal, but you are. I'm sure you're very nice but you're still talking rubbish.

tethersend · 25/08/2011 23:56

"Nie that you agree your analogy to be utter tosh but sorry tethers do you really not understand this?"

Oh Blue. You really, really don't get it, do you? I'll have one last go:

"If someone's going to break the law and steal money from the state it's still my money - it's being held in trust by the government and spent on my behalf."

If Jeff takes his money, it's not stealing. Except legislation dictates that it isn't his money. Ergo, neither is it yours.

Sleep on it.

See you in the morning.

Dream of me; I know I will Wink

MyGoldfishIsEvil · 25/08/2011 23:57

Tethers, I have a feeling you argued the yellow stiletto analogy on the bbc thread?

Just as ridiculous.

Not saying I agree with blue's views, but your analogy doesn't work because Jeff is actually trying to use the money, rather than just have a say in how it is spent (and not being spent 'fraudulently').

tethersend · 26/08/2011 00:02

MyGoldfish, disagree all you want- I'm just happy you get it Grin

MyGoldfishIsEvil · 26/08/2011 00:02

Btw,my post was directed to the original analogy on the last page - not the post above. I don't actually understand what you are saying there.

tethersend · 26/08/2011 00:03

I find it very hypocritical that people are screaming at Jeff "that's not your money! It's mine!"

Cocoflower · 26/08/2011 00:04

I get it

I just dont see the point of your erm, point

tethersend · 26/08/2011 00:05

I must say, I am very flattered that I am remembered from two other threads...

tethersend · 26/08/2011 00:06

TBH, Coco I wouldn't have laboured it if someone had got it.

Hope you get some rain Wink

MyGoldfishIsEvil · 26/08/2011 00:11

But people aren't really screaming that are they? They are saying that tax money shouldn't be spent on fraudulent claims.

Blueberties · 26/08/2011 00:15

There's no point to get.

Representatives spend the money for us.

Representatives draw up laws and circumstances under which it is spent.

It is my money being spent.

It is X's money being spent.

If X accepts it is his money held by representatives he accepts the laws and circumstances under which it is spent.

If he ignores the laws and circumstances under which his money is spent he cannot at the same time claim the laws and circumstances maintain that it is his money.

tethersend · 26/08/2011 00:21

"But people aren't really screaming that are they? They are saying that tax money shouldn't be spent on fraudulent claims."

No, some people are saying that their tax money shouldn't be given to people who think it's theirs.

The irony of this is being missed.

tethersend · 26/08/2011 00:22

"If X accepts it is his money held by representatives he accepts the laws and circumstances under which it is spent. "

Then why don't you, Blue?

tethersend · 26/08/2011 00:25

Anyway, sweet dreams. Thanks for selflessly staying up and engaging with something which bores you to death. Very noble Grin

sunshineandbooks · 26/08/2011 00:30

I don't think anyone, whatever their political stance, would disagree that it is wrong for tax money to be spent on fraudulent claims.

What's to disagree with? It's a non statement and doesn't make a thread. No controversy there.

It gets heated because it always ends up becoming a benefit-bashing-by-stealth thread. Numerous people always come out and claim that people are defrauding the system in massive quantities and therefore the country is going to hell in a handcart because of a "sense of entitlement". Whether you are talking about people who've never done a day's work in their lives or people who have paid taxes in the past and now want to go on benefits, the one thing common to both is that they are benefit claimants.

The truth is that this is a small problem really. The vast majority of claimants are claiming legally. Some people may have issues with that and think claimants are all having it too easy or whatever, but that's a different issue.

To be fair, the OP may have been referring to a personal situation, in which case she's entitled (Wink) to be annoyed, but it always gets hijacked into something else. Shame really. I'd quite like to see an intelligent thread about the social reasons underlying people's desire to give up and claim benefits. THere are many, many people, who despite a good education and a strong work ethic find themselves running hard only to stay in the same place or go backwards. Connections/luck/the financial security to take opportunities - these all play a significant part in success, some might say more than education or drive. I think that if opportunity really was equal and hard work really did pay and , you'd see more people being motivated to do it.

PrincessFiorimonde · 26/08/2011 00:30

I think Jeff is probably living it up in Monte Carlo on his £67 a week. Which he paid into the system and has now got back.

PrincessFiorimonde · 26/08/2011 00:34

sunshine, I think you've made some great posts, and I agree that the potential thread you mention could be very interesting (if it doesn't get hijacked).

Also hope Coco gets some rain.

Cocoflower · 26/08/2011 00:38

Thanks princess

I actually think in strange way everyone on this thread was only ever really saying the same thing anyway!

Pan · 26/08/2011 00:39

I agree with tethersend. Not sure why anyone ever disagrees with her, unless they don't follow the argument. It was like seeing a mirror-argument, except the reflection was held upside down. IYSWIM.

Blueberties · 26/08/2011 00:54

I do accept the laws. They don't mean it's not my money Hmm

Blueberties · 26/08/2011 00:55

No, it gets heated because anyone who says benefit fraud is wrong is accused of benefit bashing.

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