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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU as a father to expect to take my 2 1/2 year old daughter away for the weekend?

315 replies

Rob92004 · 13/08/2011 20:49

I would like to to take my 2 1/2 year old daughter to stay with my brother, his wife and their 4, 6 & 8 year old children for a weekend.
My wife will not let me take her claiming she is too sensitive and I cannot care for her properly (We have been married 7 years, and I am 44 fit and healthy!)
All opinions appreciated! Thanks.

OP posts:
TheSecondComing · 16/08/2011 09:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

toniguy · 16/08/2011 10:27

And I still think the gender reversal concept speaks volumes. If this was a woman posting, saying she had been invited to her sister for 'the weekend, her husband was also invited but didn't want to go, and also wanted to block her from taking their child, and she had already suffered verbal and emotional abuse from him, I don't think there would be a single post saying 'you selfish woman, of course you mustn't go! Stay home and support him!' Quite 'the opposite I expect!!

AdelaofBlois · 16/08/2011 10:45

Sorry this is going to be horribly wordy so I've done subheadings!

Your problem

Look, I don't for a minute think you are unreasonable for believing that you could cope with your daughter. But if you wrote 'My wife, who is breastfeeding and gave birth three months ago, has a history of depression and I think she may be developing more acute symptoms again. I want to leave her alone with the baby and go away for the weekend, AIBU?' The answer would be fairly obvious wouldn't it?

You need to balance unreasonableness to your partner (and as a partner of someone who has periodic bouts of depression, believing someone's unreasonableness when depressed legitimates not supporting them is unreasonable) with the reasonableness of the weekend away for your daughter. But it probably strikes most people here that it is practically easier to be reasonable and supportive to both by finding a way of having one-on-one time with your daughter without simply denying your wife's feelings about the weekend away.

The rant that follows

I have to say your behaviour here has just been odd-the use of the thread against your wife, the sudden speculation about depression and divorce. But one part of it was 'odd' in a very common way-by asking a question 'as a father' you immediately tapped into various attitudes about men parenting. And what did you find? Nobody declared that men couldn't care, in fact they lined up to say you were reasonable and nice and give you a pat on the f'ing back. And what did you and some of your supporters also show? That, even if unintentionally, those who talk about being fathers do simply erase women and their feelings, do believe that their employment 'gifts' stay-at-home-parenthood on women (with the implication it can be taken back), do believe that there is essentially no difference between the experiences of being a male or female parent (which is not simply about relationships with kids-these are adult, gendered, social relations) and above all that they are bullying, point-scoring and rather nasty (hence why people thought it was a divorce thread). Basically, just like RL, despite the assertions of various folk here that men are typically condemned, forced out and made to find childcare hard.

Its comments by people like you, toniguy and whoever prattled on about man-hating commentators that create an atmosphere in which it is genuinely hard for men not only to parent, but to find a way of expressing their experiences without tying in with shitty attacks on the women who help us get through.

For 9 pages you were a nice guy who was playing with some unfortunate rhetoric. After the last three I'm not sure, but even so I hope you and your wife sort things out if that's what she wants.

exoticfruits · 16/08/2011 10:49

I think that you are quite right toniguy-whether or not she has PND or other issues, if a woman was posting the replies would be very, very different.

AdelaofBlois · 16/08/2011 11:17

@exoticfruits

Of course they would, because men and women are not equally treated by others, cannot construct their lives and identities in equal ways, cannot be the same in a gendered social world even if feeling and doing the same things.

And here there is even a biological difference which would make the reversal situation untenable-the DW gave birth 12 weeks ago and is breastfeeding. She can't be given time off childcare to deal with the pressure, her body is rapidly and she suffers (apparently) form depression.

'Gender flipping' is the standard tool by which fathers4justice, menz rights type speak poisons lives. It reaches for instances of inequality and abstracts them utterly from any broader context or overall inequality, claiming men's perceived disadvantage needs addressing too. It takes a sophisticated rhetoric of difference and equality and creates a simplistic aggressive call for sameness. In parenting it creates a myth of vicitimised men far more damaging to their involvement than any reality, and does nothing to respond to all the ways women are affected far more adversely than men. At its best, which is where toniguy seems to be, it is well-intentioned simplistic shit, at its worst its bullying hate speak against women coming from an overpaid barrister's mouth in divorce court. And it shouldn't have a place here.

saintlyjimjams · 16/08/2011 11:19

I can't see OCD mentioned by the op? But if the wife does have OCD then actually op shouldn't give up reasonable activities he wants to do because it sets off his wife's OCD. I say that as someone who was given practical advice on living with a family member with OCD (not DH), and actually I feel it our job to limit the OCD as the affected person cannot. Allowing flexibility/choice often seems to increase the anxiety anyway.

What is it with the bath thing? My son's cousins are not allows to bathe with them and I find that really quite bizarre. I always went in with my multitude of cousins (while we were young of course).

The wife sounds comfortable with her dd being looked after by her family but not her husband's. That really isn't reasonable and pnd or not the wife does have to get her head round that at some stage.

toniguy · 16/08/2011 11:23

Well intentioned simplistic bullshit- fabulous. Wonderful debate!

Op - take YOUR child away for a fun weekend if on balance you as an EQUAL parent believe is the right thing. You may not be biologically/ emotionally/ blah blah the same as your wife- but you sure as hell have equal rights in how you spend your weekend- and most importantly your child' has an equal right to time with you

AdelaofBlois · 16/08/2011 11:45

I had explained at length, that's called an emphasising summative phrase (if you know your classic rhetoric manuals on debate).

You did it the same yourself wonderfully with your reply. Three lines, three uses of 'equal' (one in exciting capitals), two assertions of ownership of a child (more upper case dramatics), two mentions of 'equal rights', no mention of the 'rights' of the woman at all. Can you see how it works now, and think about the harm it does and what it implies about OP's relationship to phrase it like that?

toniguy · 16/08/2011 11:52

Yes miss!

DuelingFanjo · 16/08/2011 11:54

wonderful debate toniguy, you said it.

That's a very good post Adela, hopefully the OP will read it and will reconsider the feelings of his wife.

toniguy · 16/08/2011 11:57

I think there's such a thing as over debating!

Op- just go, hope you and your little girl have a great time - let us know how you get on!

RedHotPokers · 16/08/2011 15:08

I've done a flip on this. I was adamant that the OPs DW was BU. But the last post by the OP leaves a bad taste in my mouth tbh.

And I think AdelaofBlois has a point.

exoticfruits · 16/08/2011 17:17

I think that you can overdebate-I am now totally confused!
OP should at least come back with the outcome.
Maybe send DD to brother on her own and OP support DW!

Mitmoo · 16/08/2011 17:55

Toni If the roles were reversed and the father was mentally unwell and the mother wanted to go away leaving the mentall unwell father with a 3 and half month old, knowing it was distressing him, then I would also call the mother selfish and tell her to put her husband and both children first. I would also tell the mother to encourage her husband to seek some professional help.

I'd also tell the mother not to be a complete bjtch and try to get the husband to read a thread created and designed to slag him off.

There is no gender issue here. It is a question of supporting the other spouse when they are ill, because mental illness can be every bit as bad or worse than a physical illness.

toniguy · 16/08/2011 18:05

Ah but there is a gender issue- we've all been TOLD- see posts above!!

BoneyBackJefferson · 16/08/2011 18:20

Only here could a man who wants to do something nice with his children be found unreasonable.

Whatmeworry · 16/08/2011 18:25

Only here could a man who wants to do something nice with his children be found unreasonable

And a bullying, insensitive bastard to boot. She should obviously leave him now :o

(Picking up a lot of very bitter, agenda-laden, man hating vibes from recent entrants to this thread in the last few pages)

toniguy · 16/08/2011 18:27

Every thread I've seen on MN where a man abuses his partner, roundly condemns him. Theres no sympathy whatsoever- usually the woman is advised to leave the bastard and take the kids with her.

As You say, only on mumsnet ....

Mitmoo · 16/08/2011 19:04

toni his question was not about the abuse, that was given as an aside, his question was about taking his child away for a weekend. People addressed the issue given.

If he asked if he should leave because she was abusive it would be a different debate.

exoticfruits · 16/08/2011 19:20

I have never seen a woman told that she must put herself out and change her plans because her DH has mental health issues. He would be told to get counselling and if he refuses she should leave him.
Maybe you all read different threads to me but a man always has to be understanding-however controlling or bonkers or genuinely ill his partner is, but a woman is told to leave!!
There might be a few understanding ones, but sooner or later someone comes along and says -leave.

DuelingFanjo · 16/08/2011 19:36

has mumsnet been invaded by a construction forum again or is it that mumsnet sucks page?

TheSecondComing · 16/08/2011 20:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AdelaofBlois · 16/08/2011 22:08

Look, I know I shouldn't, but....

The question the OP raised is context specific, it is a decision that involves (at least) four human beings. To say whether he is being unreasonable is not about whether he 'as a father' can do something or even, as some here have made it, whether he has a 'right' to do something, it's about whether given all that can be understood about the situation it is on balance fair, justified, reasonable even to prioritise who he does by going (I have rights to do all sorts of things, doesn't make it right to do them). That situation is not about what he 'as a father' does with kids, or even what is 'best' for his DD, it's abouit four people struggling to support each other in a difficult and complex world.

Those (toniguy, exoticfruits, others) who wish to make this a gendergeddon exercise (a man being nice, not this man, let's flip the roles etc.) concern me because I find that father's rights rhetoric both hateful and unhelpful. Because it is undoubtedly true that men as well as women suffer from the expectation that women do childcare. It's true for men institutionally pushed away from doing what they'd wish, pushed out by their partners, or for those who do shorter or longer stints as SAHPs and find themselves in a strange world where the highest praise is to be 'as good as a mother'. But its more true for women, not just SAHMS, or even individual women with kids, but even women who have no kids at all. And there is something very disturbing about missing that when pouncing over every case where a man as man seems to be being picked on: here it meant missing key details of the situation because of how the OP phrased his point, generally it means dismissing those details because the point is the man not the woman.

Because somewhere in my mind is a dream of a world in which these assumptions are less binding, and as I've parented I've seen how it can be effected, by those like me with the privilege of being male being aware of it, not screaming at every perceived gendered injustice to those who suffer most, accommodating, building trust and support networks from other parents (well, let's be honest, mothers) we know, watching their trust grow and ever so slowly moving forward over a thousand softplay sessions, SureStart groups park benches and, eventually, coffees and cake at home. And all that, and the friendships and support that can be built for the next man to enter a baby group looking to find some support as a parent, or to move in next door with two kids to look after, are profoundly threatened by every loon, in RL or Mumsnet or the internet generally, who responds as if the key thing that must be understood by mothers is that men have it hard too, when actually we have it much, much easier.

Self-hater with agenda sounding off and out.

Rob92004 · 16/08/2011 22:26

All, thank you for your diverse and interesting opinions.
This did just start as "Am I being unreasonable wanting to take my DD2.5 away for a weekend"-. It was supposed to be just quick reality check for me. There was not meant to be anything secretive or sinister about the "drip drip", its just I didn't want to (and wasn?t planning to) write an enormous essay to start with. However as the thread developed I felt some of the comments required a bit more background, and that has perhaps run away with itself. It was not supposed to be vindictive towards DW-initially I thought it would simply be ?have look DW, I am not completely off my rocker to think of going away with DW2.5?.
Some of the opinions expressed have led me to consider the reasons behind my DWs absolute and adamant refusal to even consider me going away a sensible idea. So many people on the post and my friends have said it is a great idea and DD2.5 would really enjoy it: however DW just does not see it. So sometime back in the thread I looked up PND and DW seems to exhibit many of the symptoms, and this in turn bought back some of the memories from ~4 years ago before DW took anti-depressants-and those were difficult times.
DD2.5 talks (or listens!) to her Uncle/Aunt and Cousins on the phone most weekends, and they came to visit shorty after second DD was borne. Uncle keeps a pig, a cow and some sheep (opps more drip drip) and DD2.5 would undoubtedly have fantastic time. However I have only seen my brother twice this year and would dearly like to visit him, and let DW2.5 build a relationship with her extended family.
The divorce comment was borne out of frustration: it is pretty difficult to be told by DW that you cannot be trusted to take away your own daughter, when if we were divorced I could!

OP posts:
TheSecondComing · 16/08/2011 22:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.