feral teenage mum rioter- does she deserve her council flat and her child?

[porcamiseria]

www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23977196-shame-of-the-mother-who-saw-her-bad-daughter-looting-in-tottenham.do

I get that there are underlying issues, and that castigating the "scum" underclass is not going to acheive anything but this story for me, epitimises things

how can anyone defend her right to be a mother, and her right to benefits and a council flat? now she will go to prison, her poor child will either go to his grandmother or into care, and the cycle continues

something needs to be done to disincentivise girls like this from having children. I am not advocating sterilisation, or having kids wrought off their mothers in labour ward BUT we have a society where girls like this have babies, and they are the kids that end up rioting

people say that education and support is the answer, but in some cases people should NOT have any more kids and I think we are being far too liberal, she's a bad un. end of.

I has my son at 16 , I have always worked although at the becoming was on a very low wage so was subsidised with tax credits. His father who has a very good job has paid maintenance for the grand total of 18 months in the last 16 years.

I wasn't given a council house and there is no way I would have taken my baby to live in a hostel . How many of you have actually seen inside one of those places?

My son is now 16, he is predicted A's and B's in his gcse's and has been offered a place at college. I was as capable of looking after a baby at 16 as I am now at 33, there were alot of sacrifices envolved on my part, but that was my choice. The views of some supposedly educated ( middle class) women on here are just as ignorant as they believe these teenage girls to be.

I was trying to make the point that we should all be equal before the law. If you are going to make council tenants homeless for rioting then really you should make all rioters homeless. As it happens, I think making a criminal homeless will keep them in a life of crime.

You are quite right to call me thick if you thought I was saying criminals should be made homeless.

I haven't read the thread.

Not all teenage mums are bad just because this woman is a thief. We need to support teenage mums, who often do very well.

I think its important is punished like everyone else. It is her actions that has f*cked her son's childhood, not anyone else's. Most teenage mums don't riot or steal, why should she. I think its best to leave the judge to decide the punishment. I don't see why a mum should get preferential treatment over a childless thug.

I read today that the eponymous single mum of this thread has been refused bail, such a bloody mess. so her son wont see her

and if they are jailing a girl for receiving a top, this girl will likely be jailed as she had quite a loot

such a sad depressing mess, interesting how we people feel now its all died down

Opinionated: they are facing eviction because they may have broken their tenancy agreement. That it was because of alleged criminality during the riot irrelevant only in so far as that is the behaviour which breached the contract. Others are similarly evicted for breaching such clauses, irrespective of what criminal penalty is also being faced for the act/s which led to it. The case for eviction will be heard by a county court judge idc - there are checks and balances existing in the system.

I expect a flaming for this but if a mother allows a thief into her property and accepts stolen good from a thief, knowing them to be stolen, is she teaching her children right from wrong, is she a good mother passing on honest values? Might not her children be better off in an environment where they do not witness a parent vicariously condoning theft and riot? The fact that a mother should be considering the impact of this upon her children is a very good reason to give a harsher prison sentence imo. This woman should have been considering the consequences of her actions on her children. Those consequences might make her think twice next time; it is the culture of "I've got children, or had a bad childhood - they will take that into account and not sent me down" that has got us into this mess in the first place. The woman aided and abetted a rioter - surely the fact that she was a mother should have made her think twice. She put a T shirt above the well being of her children - why does that mean she should have a lighter sentence than someone who committed the same crime but didn't have children.

One point I feel I need to make here; the vast majority of posts commenting on teen mothers wrt keeping them in the family home or putting them into hostels seem to assume that all teen mums are single mothers. How exactly does that housing solution work if the teen couple stay together? Should the father be forced to move in with his girlfriends family, or her in with his? Should they be separated and the mother and baby sent off to a group home while the father, who may well want to and be capable of being a positive influence in the family life be denied this opportunity simply because of age?

Of course not, it is sodding stupid. If we (as a society) are going to heap so much blame at the feet of the ever evil single mother, why on earth would we go out of our way to create more of them? Ok yes if the relationship is rock solid and both parents are fully committed to being a family, they could survive a rocky start and separation in the early years, but who would that actually benefit? Certainly not the child, nor the mother who would be separated from the person who is supposed to be equally responsible for the life they have created. I doubt it would do much to help lone parent stats either as it would just create yet another problem for a couple who already have the odds stacked against their succeeding.

By all means have mother and baby units available for those who want them, with a proper support network so that when those mothers leave the unit, having been fully instructed on aspects of parenting, finance, running a home and given support to access education or employment, they still have an ongoing support network that they can turn to if they struggle. Where the funding for that would come from is another matter though...

As far as I know, only Wandsworth Council has served eviction papers against a tenant ie the mother of the 17 yr old rioter. There is a much younger child in the household. Other local authorities are only 'considering' this sort of action - Wandsworth has been a flagship tory council since the 1980s.

The case will be heard by a judge - not a MN jury.

Some people want everything for nothing, male, female, unemployed, working, parents or not. Some people like to "rebel", some people cause trouble for the hell of it, some people dont know any better.

Pious Prat - lots and lots of people in the past had to live with one or other of the sets of parents when they first got married and started a family. Perhaps that's the issue, if they thought first about whether the situation was right to have a baby they might get married first and the father might accept a little more responsibility. Very old fashioned I know but nevertheless a very valid perspective. It takes two to make a baby and it should take two to bring it up and provide for it if the father is around. Take it a step further and they could get jobs before starting a family and try to make sure they can provide for a child.

2025765/UK-riots-I-m-responsible-son-says-mother-facing-eviction-council-house.html

I wondered how long they would be bleeting about their human rights
she claims she is not responsible for the choices her child makes
She is is rent arrears

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2025765/UK-riots-I-m-responsible-son-says-mother-facing-eviction-council-house.html

It her attitude that has made the monster

maypole, you must have linked to the wrong subject...this lady and her son volunteer for charities?

She's been involved in riots herself. She is in rent arrears. She is on benefits. It can't possibly be her fault. I listened to the leader of Wandsworth Council on the radio 4 today and he appeared to be very wise and very articulate and explained that she was potentiallly in breach of her tenancy contract, and that a process had been started as a matter of procedure and that many steps in that procedure had yet to be taken before a decision about her tenancy was taken by the courts. I'd like to know exactly how much she has paid in tax by the way compared to how much she has had in benefits.

I feel sorry for Maite de la Calva and her eight year old daughter. They are innocent and should not be made homeless. I think it would be infringing their human rights to be made homeless. Prehaps the mother should be given the choice of kicking her son out or finding alternative accomodiation.

Being in arrears of rent is a seperate issue.

However I think Wandsworth council would not be unreasonable to ask the 17 year old to leave the flat. He is old enough to be able to live independently. Many children leave local authority care at 16 years old and do not have the option of living with mummy.

Yes I am sure he dose volnter for charity and is an angle and has never ever done anything like this before he is so well behaved he was out in the early hours robbing people blind

Sorry I can't let what people do or don't do for a living blind me shall we let the school teacher of to and the army guy

These people are worse than the jobless ones BECAUSE THEY SHOULD NO BETTER and to honest the fact she saying her child behaviour has nothing to do with her is why we are were we are

reallytired of corse it breaches their human rights will you tell that to the man in Ealing who was murdered by one of these bits or the women who has no home because they burnt it down

If you feel so sad for the person who failed to give boundaries, and curfew and rules why don't you put them up at yours

What I found interesting is her admission that he was in Curry's whilst it was being looted.

There's a riot - what does an innocent bystander do: get the hell out or go into an electrical store? I think there is more to this than her account.

But I agree the arrears are irrelevant.

It's late and i'm tired so I may have missed a bit maypole, but apparently he was trying to see if someone needed help?

arrears are irrelevant imo, i've been in arrears before due to local authority mistakes, not because I didn't pay (it was direct debit)!

bemused at suggestion of statutory mum & baby units. how would one compel an admission?
lets see...costs, staffing, support

1. live as single mum in community.receive benefits.no statutory input unless required
2. mandatory mum and baby unit with staff support.so team comprised of social workers, paediatrician,benefits worker,nurses,ot, psychologist, admin staff, support workers, maintenance ...

suddenly option 2 doesnt look too cost effective.

marriedinwhite a very valid point, and I don't doubt that the attitude of it being normal for young couples starting out to live with one set of parents while they saved to set up home for themselves contributed to the sense of responsibility that those couples felt for themselves, their family and their possessions. However it is not so much the case these days. In fact I would go so far as to say that couple doing that now would elicit a few raised eyebrows and be deemed a bit odd.

As an example, my DP lived at home until he was 26, when he bought his first house. He was the last of his peer group to move out, by quite a long way, and used to receive quite a few jibes about being a Mammy's boy for still living at home (despite only actually being there Monday to Friday and only then really as somewhere to sleep). 26 is no age these days to be buying a house without substantial family financial help so to my mind, it was not only sensible,but also quite impressive. However he is definitely the exception rather than the rule. I can't think of many people I know in their mid 20s who live with their parents, so at some point there has been a cultural shift from 'stay at home until you can afford a deposit and a mortgage' to 'get out quick and have independence while renting'.

I think that is a symptom of the 'want it now' attitude that in part led to the looting.

Plus of course, wrt my initial point, in the circumstances you described that was usually the choice of the couple to live with one set of parents. It wasn't something that was forced upon them by some arbitrary 'one size fits all' policy that some posts were suggesting of not offering young couples any help at all to access assistance, but instead to force them to either live with family or live apart. We have all seen enough PIL threads on here to know that living with kin can be hard at the best of times, but to be in a situation where one was forced to do it would make it unbearable to everyone's detriment.

I suppose what i am saying is that it would surely be best if there were several options for a young mother/couple and all were viewed by society as being equally valid so that each individual could make a choice that suited their personal circumstances best. I do realise that it would be impossible to legislate for, but then I am against legislation surrounding living arrangements based on age anyway which was sort of my point

The mother and the daughter were not involved the riot anymore than you were maypole1. The poll tax riots are irrelevent. Looking at the link the lad in question is actually 18. I got the age wrong.

By all means evict the 18 year old if found guilty but why punish the rest of the family?

Daniel Sartain-Clarke is 18 years old. He is not a child. At what age do you think parental responsiblity should end? Do you honestly think a mother should put her 18 year old under curfew?

"If you feel so sad for the person who failed to give boundaries, and curfew and rules why don't you put them up at yours"

That is a terribly smug comment. We have no idea what her parenting is like.
It is easy to give boundaries and curfews when your children are young. It is much easier to control a stroppy toddler than adult child.

I don't believe that you can blame the behaviour of the rioters on bad parenting. In most cases that is infantising them. The rioters themselves should be punished and no one else.

Where I live you don't automatically get a council house, there arnt enough! Most go into a hostel for mothers and babies ( fathers can also go in ) while you wait for a flat/ house to become available.

Dont be silly moomins, it's as easy as pie. Leave school, get up the duff, get yourself on benefit, get a 5 star council mansion...you're set for life.

Teach your kids to lie, steal and fight to the death while all the other single mums look on. [thumbs up emoticon]