feral teenage mum rioter- does she deserve her council flat and her child?

[porcamiseria]

www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23977196-shame-of-the-mother-who-saw-her-bad-daughter-looting-in-tottenham.do

I get that there are underlying issues, and that castigating the "scum" underclass is not going to acheive anything but this story for me, epitimises things

how can anyone defend her right to be a mother, and her right to benefits and a council flat? now she will go to prison, her poor child will either go to his grandmother or into care, and the cycle continues

something needs to be done to disincentivise girls like this from having children. I am not advocating sterilisation, or having kids wrought off their mothers in labour ward BUT we have a society where girls like this have babies, and they are the kids that end up rioting

people say that education and support is the answer, but in some cases people should NOT have any more kids and I think we are being far too liberal, she's a bad un. end of.

ChickenLickn - "We have seen rising food, utilities, trransport and more costs, and people are really squeezed. The cost of living has risen faster than social support like job seekers allowance. - This means people are living in deprivation and social exclusion (having to choose between a meal and a warm home, and cant even afford a pint at the pub). ". I too am feeling all of these pressures yet I did not destroy, disrespect and steal from my community.

Hi Maypole, can you paste some of that article here please, Im not sure what you are refering to actually?

mathan - fwiw I dont think teenage or single mums are the villian of the piece either.

chickinLickn - are you for real? Firstly the rioters came from all walks of life. Secondly by your reasoning, why was it only 1500 or so involved? Could it be because most people regardless of income or living conditions, still know right from wrong. Its insulting to the law abiding majority that happen to live in social housing/on benefits to suggest otherwise. Thirdly, and most importantly, are you really telling me that is justification for burning peoples homes to the ground and murder?

Chicken - "The cost of living has risen faster than social support like job seekers allowance. - This means people are living in deprivation and social exclusion". In addition, the cost of living has risen faster than standard wages so many people, whether they are on benefits or not, are far worse off. This is still not an excuse for the rioting and looting as it happened. Protest is one thing but what occurred does not seem to be directly about the issue you have mentioned. It may well be symptomatic of these issues but as others have pointed out, not everybody who is in this situation chose to behave in this way, there should still be a moral code that guides us and those that choose criminality as they did should be punished

x post beancounternomore

Some young people have a lot of energy and drive, but they do not know how to use it effectively.

Some need more guidance and direction from adults.

Their guidance services (education, youth clubs) have been removed. Some have turned to gangs.

I quote from the article above:

"Right now it looks like there isn't a future for young people, that's how I see it."
He added: "We are not doing it for the fun of it, we are doing it for money to survive."

If they had guidance to put their energy into a legitimate business opportunity, they may well have made a success of it. They were resourceful and even got a transit van to help with the loot! But without guidance, they took the most direct (and illegal, destructive) route to get the items they have wanted.

there is a mother baby unit (YMCA) near me, it is clean, modern and safe. Not full of irish sadistic nuns! my friend also works for one

thats only one answer, one in the myriad of solutions needed

PiousPrat Certainly where I live now (and definitely where I grew up), if a couple were to live with their parents until they could afford a deposit and a mortgage, they'd be there until they were 40! Under those conditions, why not move into rented accomodation?

The housing market has created a vast class of people who will never be able to afford to buy their own home. Personally, I like renting and think it's much better for the country to have long-term lets, but the UK rental market isn't set up for that. The rental stock in this country is fucking DIRE, and while the vast majority of landlords and agencies might not be out and out crooks (and a good whack of them are), those who take really good care of their properties are rare and precious jewels. There is nothing dictating the condition of a property apart from a landlord's conscience.

I genuinely believe that once a good number of people (working and middle class) realise that they are condemned to this awful rental market for most of their lives, and that home-ownership, that ruthlessly promoted UK dream, is a big lie, then we will see riots and civil disobedience that makes current events look like a picnic.

Victor I don't disagree with your opinion regarding rental stock but the only "lie" in home ownership is that it ain't cheap and it's hardwork.

I believe if you want it and work for it and understand how debt works for you, and understand how the risks associated with debt can work against you then no drama go forth and own - if that is your bag. Sadly many people don't understand and it isn't in the banks interest to educate them.

The same house ownership "credit culture" is an underlying factor in the looting. Some credit card companies recklessly handed out credit to all and sundry and trapped people in debt. Ok, to divided opinions here - 1. the people who took credit were morons or 2. the credit companies exploited the lack of financial education out there. Take your pick. I favour the latter.

Now that credit has dried up somewhat the people who were used to spending 2, 3, 4 grand on their perfect electronic christmas can't do that anymore. The offspring, who have basked in their plasticky goodness every Yuletide are feeling the consumer pinch.

Mass hysteria breaks out - boom - looting.

This isn't a class/under-class issue in its entirety but it is a socio-economic factor. Anyone from any class can misjudge how well their children understand money and risk and create consumer monsters who will naturally feel let down when the money tree starts to wilt.

And you know what, this is where single parents (of any age and any gender) COULD get caught out. They MAY feel the pressure of being 2 parents so much that the gap can be filled with "stuff" - they don't want their loved ones to feel hard done by so they get that bit extra, stretch that little bit further.

All my very humble opinion of course... and just one of the many many factors that came into play t'other week.

Yes those involved in the riots should be given a custodial sentence, if they live in social housing and receive benefits, they should get a warning that if they take part in criminal activity, they risk having their housing and benefits removed. What ever happened to personal responsibility, you cannot onlyblame the government, parents society etc and shift responsibility.

A lot of the rioters were not from poor deprived backgrounds, but from middle-class families, who held professional jobs. How do you explain that. The dark side of human nature at work there

Fred Goodwin should not have a huge pension, Tory MPs should not have duckhouses for moats, DC should not have joined an awful elitist club and got away with crime purely for slapping a little compensation to buy their way out, the cabinet should not be made up of mainly white elitist males, bankers should not have gambled people's entire assets to make bigger commissions, police should not take bribes and pay offs for stories, Newspapers should not be hacking phones and paying police to be corrupt.....

When these top level and wide reaching corruption and diseases are eradicated we can then start seeing which sect of the poor to pick on.

Those affected by the riots were mainly decent hardworking folk who had their shops, houses and lives, not politicians

They did not trash government buildings eg Downing S, Houses of Parliament, or Whitehall, just innocent folk

chickenlickn - so you really think the riots were about survival do you?

And as for your comment that about their 'resourcefulness' - do you think threatening women, burning peoples homes and businesses to the ground and driving a car into and killing innocent bystanders - do you think that is resourceful too?

Jesus fucking christ.

Yes, it is about survival, a buildup of pressure and frustration, poverty and social exclusion

Obviously you have not been in that situation as you seem to have no understanding . But I have been there in a way. I live in a very nice area, we did not have any problems here at all. However when I was unemployed for a while, I sent off hundreds of applications. They were very rarely acknowledged.
Benefits is not a life, it provides only the most degrading survival. Write a budget and see how far you can get on £65 a week. It hardly cover bills and the most basic food.

• No clothes, no socialising, can you understand what that feels like at christmas, birthdays and weddings of friends and family, and you cannot to go and cannot afford a gift? Even when you have contributed and done well all your life?

I can certainly understand how someone would feel very frustrated and angry.

chicken not all the rioters were from deprived backgrounds, some were from wealthy middle class backgrounds, with professional jobs. whatever the reason, there is no excuse for the violence demonstrated in the riots, the burning and looting of shops and houses, and injuring people . when some of the rioters were interviewed, they could not come up with a reason as to why they did it, sheep mentality mabey. These people were not directing their greiviance towards the government but to innocent hardworking folk.

yes chicken but you don't go round setting fire to homes and shops, and assaulting people do you . Those involved in the riots deserve a very strong custodial sentence. Instead of directing their anger onto innocent people, they should do something to better their situation.

Really Chicken you really do come outwith some rubbish. I don't think that you would feel that way if it was your shop they set fire to and looted, or your house they petrol bombed, or you or your family who was injure by them. I am pleased to say that the majority if us rich or poor have morals and a consience

Piglet. It's not he case whether rioters should feel the full force of the law that not agreeable, but the upper sectors of society whose crimes were as bad, if not worse, but not so visible have escaped real punishment. Ask the families without homes whether or not the bankers got all they deserved.

I think a fair society punishes hard but with a fair hand.

Piglet you make the same mistake that frustrates the hell out of me. Do not call arsonists and murders rioters. It is a whole different set of crimes and therefore punishment. They just happened on the same days.

WHen we discuss the social factors that caused the widespread criminal damage and looting turning round and saying what if your family were assaulted is facile.

People who commit assault, arson, murder, rape whatever regardless of the situation they are in should be punished by a consistant law.

People who act like braindead consumer morons who follow their mates into a shop to nick kebabs and trainers should be punished by a consistant law.

People who steal from their clients or company or the state should be punished by a consistant law.... Can you see where I'm going here?

Posie you don't go round burning shops, houses assaulting or murdering people. How come these criminals came from privledged families, who hold down professional jobs. When they were interviews on the streets these thugs could not give a reason. How come government buildings were not target. Whatever you may feel you don't go round commiiting gross acts of violence, how is that going to help your cause, more like land you in jail and loose the respect of people.

Two wrongs don't make a right and blaming the fat cat bankers is not an excuse. You tell that to the people who lost life, had their homes and business destroyed. The real Heros are the emergency services, and those that came out to help clean up the community and restore faith that there are decent human beings about

The government is suggesting that rioters who are also benefit claimants should be treated differently under the law. If they go ahead with that then I think we all should join the rioters.

If you want to make it legal to put looters and arsonists in prison for 30 years that's okay with me, but to punish them differently if they are benefit claimants would be sickening.

Onga I would never stoop down so low as to destroy someones home, business or lives

They're criminals, end of, whether or not they're on benefits. What's worse about taking benefits or evicting people is that we can't do it to those who own property, just those that can't. It's disgusting.