to think some people's attitudes are disgusting?

[TheRhubarb]

A thread about a thread and a sense of despair. There is a thread on mumsnet suggesting that babies be taken from parents at birth if the parents are, in her words "scum". Is this what we have become?

As much as I loathe and detest what the rioters have done let's take a step back here. There have been riots in Greece over cuts, protests in Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. All we've had so far are a few half-hearted protests whilst the government pisses off on yet another holiday and banks and energy companies publish record profits yet again. Were these riots not predicted at all?

You have generations of children born into families who have never worked and who live in a cycle of poverty. The charities and organisations that worked tirelessly to keep youths off the streets and give them hope have been disbanded due to cuts. So far 2,220 charities have been directly affected, the largest number in Birmingham and the second largest in London. Research also shows the the most deprived areas are those which are hardest hit.

When you live in a society that bombards you with images of footballers wives sunning themselves on holiday and you have a government that decided to all take their holidays at the same time whilst many families are forced to cancel their holidays then you can have some understanding of the hotbed of anger and resentment. Job losses are huge, benefits cut, the maintenance allowance to enable youths to go to college is scrapped, petrol prices are huge, energy prices up again and everyone is blaming each other.

I'm sorry but when a society breaks down you have to look deeper than just parental influence, you have to look at what help there is available. Because as a society we are all responsible for what happens. We all have a part to play and just pointing the finger of blame at so called 'scum' is offensive and narrow minded. If there are scum out there then we, as a society created them. This country is in danger of becoming as corrupt as Italy. The energy companies get away with murder, no-one now bats an eyelid at petrol price hikes, the banks are still making huge profits and the government are targeting the poorest to make them pay for the mistakes of the rich. Where there is corruption on this scale there will be riots.

There is no excuse for tearing apart people's businesses or burning down homes, but just pointing the finger of blame at each other will not help.

Rant over.

Leley you have to remember that when a baby is born, 99.999% of mothers, and fathers, want them to have a beautiful life. Parents don't actually want their kids to grow up like this, they need help to do it properly. It's not too hard to give them the tools to do that.

Sorry Lesley, I've got a dodgy keyboard.

Why are people 'nasty' because they happen to have different views to you? Seriously if you dislike the views of others and seek to get offended so much by people having different views why the hell frequent a discussion board?

Parents and the task of parenting don't exist in a vacuum. From birth to adulthood, childrens moral and behavioral development are influenced by their immediate environment ie helpful or unhelpful - family, friends, schools, neighbourhoods, etc. The younger the child the greater the influence of parents and the older the child the greater the influence of friends and neighbourhoods.

Scapegoating parents is absurd.

Good point Lesley - Boarding schools are rich peoples' foster care.

And sing there are many parents who really couldnt give a crap. Its hard to stomach but it really is the truth. And all the 'help' and support put in place in the world couldnt enable some people to become good parents who dont bring up damaged kids. Now is it better to continue this cycle and have kids grow up with no self esteem or worse still dead from abuse or neglect or give them the chance of a better life? Ive no idea why some people are so reluctant to face what actually DOES happen in some families out there in the big wide world...

Rhubarb - I am sitting in Belgium watching this and I am appalled at what I am seeing. I don't think Bimbo is as draconian as you claim, having read this thread, but is expressing her frustration at those who seem to want to wring their hands and make excuses for those involved in the rioting and looting. There is an amorality about the looting that scares me; those involved in torching businesses and homes don't give a shit about what they are doing; that it is livelihoods they are ruining, that those business owners (like the Furniture store in Croydon) have employees who are also now jobless.

As I said, 1997-2010 saw millions pumped into these communities and what difference has it made? If in 13 years the attitudes can't be turned round, then they won't be. There is an over reliance on benefits and a culture of entitlement that exists. Why do you think there are huge camps of illegal immigrants at Sangatte near Calais and beginning to exist at Dunkirk? Because they see the UK as an easy place to get money, or to sink into the black economy. I don't want a fascist society, but I do want one where actions have consequences and ones that aren't a slap on the wrist.

I don't feel in the least bit charitable or understanding of those involved in this; my Gran in 1942 came home to find her home being loaded onto a cart as her husband left her with her 12 month old son, a bed, a table and a chair. She brought my Dad up from nothing, there were no state handouts then, so she scrubbed floors, sold insurance, worked in a department store to make ends meet. When she retired she said her pension was more money than she had ever had coming in. She would have been shocked to the core with what is going on; and would never, even when on the bones of her arse, have stolen, rioted or looted. She had no education having left school at 14 in 1926; the Express was as much as she could read. There would have been no excuses then for the behaviour demonstrated on the streets of England over the past few nights, and there are none now.

For the last time, if you can't understand the difference between attempting to understand the causes and "making excuses", you really shouldn't be commenting at all.

And Rhubarb I actually think you are the one showing hatred now- towards me in particular. As the rules state on these boards have your opinion but dont personally attack others, which is exactly what you are doing.

Quite, Siamo. I'm getting really pissed off with the number of people who seem to think that trying to understand what the hell motivated the rioters to behave the way they did is 'excusing' their behaviour.

Wanting to understand doesn't mean that I approve of the rioters or lack sympathy for their victims. I do wish people like Bimbo would get this.

And ive said some people are scum, where the hell have I dismissed the people I help as scum?
Would it shock you to know many of the police officers/prison officers 'caring' for people ALSO think they are scum? Can you not do a job without having a view about certain people's vile behaviour?

Are you saying that you're a Paediatric Nurse, bimbo ?

You cannot expect a moderate reaction to an extreme situation Life doesn't work that way

Yes I am, im so sorry I have a job and also opinions of criminals and terrible neglectful parents, but I think you will find a hell of a lot of us have! Along with police officers, teachers and most other professions.

SF: This thread is about making excuses, not understanding the causes. We are supposed to feel sorry for these rioters? No, I am not, for all the reasons above. People have a choice on how they behave; those involved have made the wrong one. They know that what they are doing is wrong, but do it anyway, because they have no fear of the consequences and don't care who they hurt because it is all about them and their rights.

singforsupper - I work with families who are challenging. Some of their histories and issues they face are truly awful. Some have no idea how to be good parents. I am committed to helping these families and in particular their children live a better life.

But although many liberals agree with what I have just said, many fail to recognise/believe the small amount of families where the parents are just awful and unlikely to change. These are the families who actively encourage their children to break the law, who don't care if they vandalise as long as they are not vandalising their house, who will give very young children cigarettes and alcohol, etc.

I don't think we do these children any favours by leaving them with their parents as babies. Although I appreciate it can be difficult when children are babies to accurately suss out the parents where agencies are largely wasting their time working with them.

Bimbo I know there are many parents who don't give a crap. In case you didn't know there are lots of programs out there that help parents to fix these relationships and break the cycle of abuse they are in. Taking kids away from their parents usually results in the parent having more kids who then need taking away.

TBH you sound as though you are desensitised through the work you do.

Exactly Lesley, its nothing to do with not helping certain people its to do with some people are beyond help, have had helped and not changed and any children they have are likely to be harmed.

However the biggest problem and the catalyst of all of this is our corrupt government. A government who rule hand in hand with the banks and allow old people to die of cold whilst congratulating British Gas on huge profits. A government who, as stocks and shares are plummeting, are sunning themselves on yet another foreign jaunt. A government who talks about the big society on the one hand yet cuts funding for charities and many public services with the other

You see whilst I agree with that, I'm sure if you asked the kids out on the streets who were looting and burning our community about any of that they wouldn't have a clue what you're on about.

However, if you asked them (as lots of journalists did) why they are out on the streets, they'd tell you it's because the police can do nothing while they help themselves to the contents of the shops and cause complete mayhem in the name of 'excitement'.

If this happened when I was a child/teenager, I know damn well what would have prevented me from joining in and that would have been the fear of getting caught and the consequences from both my parents and the police.

What real consequences do they face now? An ASBO to boast about? A supervision order that can often see such rewards as free driving lessons, days out at Thorpe Park and other opportunities they would never have otherwise been given?

Sounds good in theory until you hear them openly laughing and boasting about these 'consequences'

Scaryteacher - where has ANYONE said we're supposed to feel sorry for the rioters?

"Kids are feral these days, and in their case it is their parents fault yet every day I work with useless idiotic parents who have a small amount of 'support' from social services and are sent on their merry way usually breeding more kids they didnt really want and cant cope with who then end up like these little sods causing upset and dispair on the streets." - Bimbo

This thread is not about making excuses. I said the point of this thread was to express despair at some of the attitudes that have come out of the woodwork. Children being called scum and vigilante facebooks set up that show more violence in their posts than they claim to condemn.

I don't understand why the government are not being held to account for their part in this? Why are the police being blamed when they've had their budgets and numbers slashed by the government? Why is society now turning on each other when the people who are really to blame for all that is wrong sit on high and moan about having to cut short their holidays?

"Those people who took to the streets of London to clean up didn't just sit on their arses blaming people, they did something and to many people they restored faith in humanity. I didn't hear any one of those people spew out hatred, they just wanted to help put things right. That is the attitude that will save this country, not some Nazi bile."

You really need to join my local "clean up" facebook group and read the comments then.

"Twice now I have commented that not all the rioters were working class kids. Some were professional adults. A graphic designer, future soldier and an educated university graduate were among those in court for rioting. But of course that is ignored because people like to assume that lawless teenagers were responsible as they are presumably easier to hate and judge."

Hw does that fit in with "it's all the government's fault... Shut youth clubs... Poor pushed out of education"?