to think some people's attitudes are disgusting?

[TheRhubarb]

A thread about a thread and a sense of despair. There is a thread on mumsnet suggesting that babies be taken from parents at birth if the parents are, in her words "scum". Is this what we have become?

As much as I loathe and detest what the rioters have done let's take a step back here. There have been riots in Greece over cuts, protests in Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. All we've had so far are a few half-hearted protests whilst the government pisses off on yet another holiday and banks and energy companies publish record profits yet again. Were these riots not predicted at all?

You have generations of children born into families who have never worked and who live in a cycle of poverty. The charities and organisations that worked tirelessly to keep youths off the streets and give them hope have been disbanded due to cuts. So far 2,220 charities have been directly affected, the largest number in Birmingham and the second largest in London. Research also shows the the most deprived areas are those which are hardest hit.

When you live in a society that bombards you with images of footballers wives sunning themselves on holiday and you have a government that decided to all take their holidays at the same time whilst many families are forced to cancel their holidays then you can have some understanding of the hotbed of anger and resentment. Job losses are huge, benefits cut, the maintenance allowance to enable youths to go to college is scrapped, petrol prices are huge, energy prices up again and everyone is blaming each other.

I'm sorry but when a society breaks down you have to look deeper than just parental influence, you have to look at what help there is available. Because as a society we are all responsible for what happens. We all have a part to play and just pointing the finger of blame at so called 'scum' is offensive and narrow minded. If there are scum out there then we, as a society created them. This country is in danger of becoming as corrupt as Italy. The energy companies get away with murder, no-one now bats an eyelid at petrol price hikes, the banks are still making huge profits and the government are targeting the poorest to make them pay for the mistakes of the rich. Where there is corruption on this scale there will be riots.

There is no excuse for tearing apart people's businesses or burning down homes, but just pointing the finger of blame at each other will not help.

Rant over.

because you only have room to think about one thing at once, sausages? Is there a particular reason you think that trying to understand the causes precludes sympathy for those affected?

I hadn't realised that peoples stores of compassion and understanding were so small.

Its all about greed and making a quick buck, just like some badass mofo on the news has just said......awww quick lets give him and his mates a hug plays kum-by-ahh on the banjo

*because you only have room to think about one thing at once, sausages? Is there a particular reason you think that trying to understand the causes precludes sympathy for those affected?

I hadn't realised that peoples stores of compassion and understanding were so small.*

What a peculiar response...and a bizarre interpretation to my comment!

I think that some of these kids have a lot more than my grandparents had....certainly in material goods

Really, you find that bizarre. You said you'd like to see more empathy and sympathy for those innocent victims. And you said it here, implying that you thought there wasn't any here. You can't see how your comment would be interpreted that way?

Um. O--kay then.

Bimbo you're not absorbing any of this are you? You'd just rather entertain yourself with the idea that everyone on this thread that is disagreeing with you feels dead sorry for the rioters.

sausages, er yes it has. Very much so. Where there is corruption there are also high levels of criminality.

There have always been disgusting attitudes that want babies taken away from mothers, enforced sterilisations and segregation. They were mainly the Nazis, which is a good example of what happens when the finger of blame is pointed at a certain section of society without looking at the bigger picture.

The police could not cope with the riots because they too face huge cuts. Anyone watching "24 hours in A&E" will appreciate how hard nursing staff work often without breaks or appreciation. Social services are stretched to breaking point and teachers, who often are called upon to be the eyes and ears of what is happening to children are being asked to do more for less.

The hardest working sections of society, the people who represent our very core, are being punished for the mistakes of the banks and the government. When you hit the core of society then the people who suffer are those at the bottom.

Wanting to get rid of an entire section of society will not provide an answer. All bubbles and bimbo are doing is blaming instead of solving. Their attitudes offer no solutions and no answers, just hate and blame and prejudice.

Those people who took to the streets of London to clean up didn't just sit on their arses blaming people, they did something and to many people they restored faith in humanity. I didn't hear any one of those people spew out hatred, they just wanted to help put things right. That is the attitude that will save this country, not some Nazi bile.

I have to say I am with Bimbo on this one. The sense of entitlement from some youngsters is astounding, and all they are interested in is their 'rights', rather than their responsibilities.

I don't think Bimbo is abhorrent and ignorant; she merely holds a different view to you. We still have the right of free speech. The Coalition has only been in power since May last year. We had 13 years of throwing money at these problems before the Coalition and they didn't improve; the idea of the nanny State providing everything hasn't worked...these kids have had a free education, free health care and had an opportunity. I don't doubt that it is hard to swim against the tide of peer pressure and parental indifference (and yes, having seen many parents in my teaching time, I DO blame some of the parents), but some do it, so what is the excuse for the rest?

I also agree with Sausages above.

Those people who took to the streets of London to clean up didn't just sit on their arses blaming people, they did something and to many people they restored faith in humanity. I didn't hear any one of those people spew out hatred, they just wanted to help put things right. That is the attitude that will save this country, not some Nazi bile.

THAT.

Im not interested in psycho analysing why bratty scumbags decide to act they way they do, and as for solving ive already said a billion times there are NO consequences that bother these wasters so the justice system needs to step up. But no doubt my view on that is also wrong as I should clearly be out playing Mother Theresa and asking all these yobbos what caused them to turn this way whilst dodging a shower of bricks/bottles

I havent sat on my arses blaming people either, ive been at work reassuring parents that the baying mob of 'misunderstood products of society' would be kept out of the hospital and not able to cause chaos.

I wonder how comments would contrast/differ...if people themselves had had their businesses destroyed, if their friends and family members had been killed and/or had their homes destroyed...

I think there are a number of reasons people got involved in rioting, looting and arson. A disparate range of people were involved and it is naive to assume they all got involved for the same resaon. I think the different reasons are:

1. Children who have been brought up in highly dysfunctional families who have been actively encouraged by parents to ignore the law and engage in crime such as theft. I suspect that the very young children involved are likely to be from these types of families.

1. The impact of the mob e.g. people going along with things because they get caught up in it. Particularly with looting. Young people watching looting and being egged on to loot by others can feel as if they are stupid if they don't take advantage and loot as well.

1. People generally angry with society and the police for a range of reasons - some justified and some unjustified. I suspect this is particularly the case for some people who have targetted police and police stations. May also be the reason for some more professional type of people involved.

1. Petty criminals taking advantage of the situation to steal/mug.

1. Young people being involved because of the excitement element and being encouraged and pumped up by other young people. These won't be the law abiding type of young people, but they are also people who are unlikely to do serious criminal acts of their own volition. I suspect messaging plays a big role in drawing these types of young people in.

1. I have heard allegations privately that some extreme left wing agitators have been involved. I don't know if this is true, but a friend swears she recognised someone who fits this description in the tv footage.

1. The recognition that even if they are caught, for most of the crimiunal acts sentences are likely to be very low. The threat of community service or a caution just isn't a severe enough punishment to on its own, prevent people looting.

8 Although it didn't start the 1st disturbances, I think the growing realisation of people that the police have been able to do very little,actively encouraged new people to get involved. It is striking that with the large increase in police in London, the amount of people involved became very very small.

The reality is that the amount of police normally on duty to respond to incidents, is in most towns and cities frighteningly small. I think people attracted to looting and disorder began to recognise this and this is why the numbers involved grew.

Allied to that is the reality that most ordinary people were too afraid to confront rioters also encourages people to gtet involved in subsequent nights.

Wow. Just, wow.

scaryteacher, Bimbo by her own admission is not interested in anyone else's viewpoint or looking at the bigger picture. She is not interested in the volunteers helping to clean up the streets, she certainly won't be getting her hands dirty in that way, she just wants babies taken from their mothers at birth and no doubt put into camps.

You can have an alternative opinion and no doubt those people who saw their livelihoods destroyed and their homes burnt down will not be feeling particularly charitable or understanding, but to have such extreme views goes against the British spirit and serves to help no-one but their own bigoted views.

I didn't hear any one of those people spew out hatred, they just wanted to help put things right. That is the attitude that will save this country, not some Nazi bile

To be fair, you're not going to be privvy to the conversations of all the people helping to clear up.

On my council's FB page this morning and last night, the people organising the clean up operations were very much spewing out hatred for the mob of scum that spent the last two nights looting, smashing up and burning our community.

FWIW, I would never suggest children are taken away from their parents..but I do feel this is 'payback' for the namby pamby lack of discipline in our schools and society that's been happening since the late 80's. I think it's a mixture of "I'm a kid, therefore I'm untouchable" and pure greed and materialism that led to most of the looting and crime.

Give the power back to the teachers and police force, stop all this "I'm going to sue" culture and encourage parents to actually back the police and schools when they 'dare' to discipline the kids and I think that'll be a healthy start.

Back to basics I suppose.

OP, I agree with the sentiment of what you are saying. But what we need is a massive sea change in society and our attitudes to others, where the rich are held as accountable as the poor for their actions and the damage they do to the fabric of society. All the trappings of privilege means nothing if there are no values attached to it. Your average middle class, university educated kid may not end up looting Footlocker, but they may end up looting some poor bugger's pension fund; or becoming an MP and looting some poor bugger's country to protect oil rights. And doing so with impunity. Neither, imo, was brought up with any self respect or respect for others, rather a sense of entitlement and the ability to deflect blame onto everyone else to justify their actions. But only one will serve time for it.

I'm an atheist, but I've always liked this saying from the Bible:

'Better is a dinner of herbs where love is, than a stalled ox and hatred therewith.' (Proverbs 15:17).

Rhubarb dont talk bullshit and put words into my mouth, I said some kids would be better off taken from some parents at birth. Not poor parents or jobless parents, but gang members, sex offenders and drug addicts who have had other children taken into care for failing them so badly. You seem to want to paint me as some kind of villain here for not agreeing with your tip toe through the tulips approach to dealing with those who have no qualms about what chaos and hurt they cause.

I think the whole "it's not my fault, blame X Y or Z" is part of the problem. If it were the fault of X, Y or Z, then every affected person would be out there.

But they're not. Why is that?

No im not out there getting my 'hands dirty' cleaning up the streets as I work fulltime in a job that benefits society as it is.

Perhaps children likely to grow up as exploitative investment bankers or war mongering MPs need to be removed from their parents for the good of society too? Get social services roaming the quads at Eton.....

Marking olace but also asking why do young people smash things up? From poor youths to Bullingdon club privilaged young men?

I actually do think we don't take babies from parents when we should. I am not advocating that babies are taken easily from parents. But tbh it is shocking how bad things have to be in a family before a baby is taken away.

What is more usual with the worst families is that a variety of professionals spend a lot of time trying to help the parents be better parents and when they fail their children are taken away from them. But by then the children will have suffered from very poor parenting and it usually shows.

I love it when mumsnetters show their true colours. I make a mental note of their names and remember them. That way I can avoid conversing with them in the future.

I hate it when MNHQ deletes these hostile posts, because their nastiness is deleted and they can pretend to be squeaky clean again.

MsAnn There are of course terrible parents who are wealthy. But their children tend to be brought up by nannies and boarding schools, not the parents. Hence they are better off remaining where they are than being taken into care.