to think some people's attitudes are disgusting?

[TheRhubarb]

A thread about a thread and a sense of despair. There is a thread on mumsnet suggesting that babies be taken from parents at birth if the parents are, in her words "scum". Is this what we have become?

As much as I loathe and detest what the rioters have done let's take a step back here. There have been riots in Greece over cuts, protests in Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. All we've had so far are a few half-hearted protests whilst the government pisses off on yet another holiday and banks and energy companies publish record profits yet again. Were these riots not predicted at all?

You have generations of children born into families who have never worked and who live in a cycle of poverty. The charities and organisations that worked tirelessly to keep youths off the streets and give them hope have been disbanded due to cuts. So far 2,220 charities have been directly affected, the largest number in Birmingham and the second largest in London. Research also shows the the most deprived areas are those which are hardest hit.

When you live in a society that bombards you with images of footballers wives sunning themselves on holiday and you have a government that decided to all take their holidays at the same time whilst many families are forced to cancel their holidays then you can have some understanding of the hotbed of anger and resentment. Job losses are huge, benefits cut, the maintenance allowance to enable youths to go to college is scrapped, petrol prices are huge, energy prices up again and everyone is blaming each other.

I'm sorry but when a society breaks down you have to look deeper than just parental influence, you have to look at what help there is available. Because as a society we are all responsible for what happens. We all have a part to play and just pointing the finger of blame at so called 'scum' is offensive and narrow minded. If there are scum out there then we, as a society created them. This country is in danger of becoming as corrupt as Italy. The energy companies get away with murder, no-one now bats an eyelid at petrol price hikes, the banks are still making huge profits and the government are targeting the poorest to make them pay for the mistakes of the rich. Where there is corruption on this scale there will be riots.

There is no excuse for tearing apart people's businesses or burning down homes, but just pointing the finger of blame at each other will not help.

Rant over.

No-one is saying that the criminals involved do not have responsibility for their own actions. We are looking at why the mass riots broke out and why there appears to be a huge breakdown in society. Not one person has said that the police are to blame or that rioters should be given sympathy.

However, I will reiterate that not all the rioters were from impoverished backgrounds and that seems to be all that some posters are concentrating on. Single mothers, people on benefits etc etc. This is no longer a debate about rioters but about the welfare system and how they are all to blame.

Which brings me back to my original point. The condemnation not of individual rioters but of large sections of society. The two people I remember making the comments about babies being taken away were not commenting on rioters but on the people they work with who they perceive as scum, people who might have had nothing to do with the recent events.

If we are not careful then the anger will be directed not towards the people who caused the riots, but immigrants, single mums, the unemployed, young black men etc. As sausages kindly pointed out, one of the rioters was a teaching assistant, another a graphic designer.

And do you think that the rioters at the student protests were there to protest about fees? They were there to cause mayhem and destruction and loot a few shops. But because they were educated university students there were no calls against single mums and the unemployed, no questioning of their parental backgrounds.

'Not all working class people riot'

exactly but they all get lumped together don't they?

Anyone lives on a council estate = benefit scrounging freeloader according to MN

doesntfitin, just a minority of MN. This thread really doesn't do MN justice. There are many working class single mums who have contributed.

"It's ridiculous to compare the recent riots with the student protests."

I don't agree.

This is all part of the back drop of unrest going on for young people..

When the government put University fees up to 9k (fromb 3k) - that was a REAL heart sink and kick in the teeth to young people. It pissed me off, so it must piss them off. It's a MASSIVE injustice.

Somehow the government needs to reverse this ludicous increase - and give young adults some hope for their future.

Not all people on MN who have opposed views are middle class.

Does it not occur to you that the very people who do work with these groups day in and day out are better placed to judge if they are scum or not?

I left social services because I was fed up with everyone pussyfooting around bad parents, when all I wanted to do was to tell them to grow up and face their responsibilities.

No I was just talking about some people. No you cannot tar everyone with the same brush.

piglet, no-one has said they are. But it does appear that sections of society are being targeted and blamed for this and that's a dangerous attitude to have. Let's see who the rioters are who come up in court first and tackle them individually instead of declaring war on a large part of society.

I've got to go. I've got kids to parent and work to do

doesnt That's bullshit. There are a few on MN who see things that way, and they generally get flamed. Why not direct your anger at the people who behave in a way that perpetuates the stereotypes of benefit scrounging freeloaders and make life so much harder for those who are doing their best?

The problem is that it's no longer OK to say 'Shame on you' to a stranger who behaves in an antisocial way. Instead enforcing acceptable behaviour is somehow supposed to be entirely the job of government.

I see the attitudes on here all the time

How many times do I read :
'I'm not sending my kids to a certain school because council estate kids go there
I won't buy a certain house because its near a council estate
Take their houses of them ,they shouldn't have a home for life
Shop a benefit scrounger
I don't pay my taxes /sense of entitlement

It makes me want to bloody riot when I read things like that

I agree and have said previously that some of the rioters were from professional jobs and middle class families. Yes there is no complete definition of a rioter. dosent people are entitled to their own views, yes council houses should not be for life, it should be temp for a few years until people can get back on their feet

doesntfitin: - You get hypocrites everywhere, especially in politics - Diane Abbott ( MP for Hackney) claims to love Hackney and its people - if that's true, why did she send her son to a private school miles away?

Which is my point really

Its not just the poor who are responsible for the feels of unrest

doesntfitin

I agree with a lot of what *Othehugemantee" said

I must say, and this is only my own observations of MN over a year or so I think the fact "all working class people... get lumped together" is because I dare say, some lump themselves together as one homogenous entity.

I am not of course reffering to every wc poster on MN but there is a definitly a few names who come up time and time and time again anytime the word 'benefits' or 'council housing' is mentioned.

It is like some inbuilt protective reaction- they blindly defend on they very anything negative is said about benefits usually with "daily mail reader" insult bandied around (oh and now the oh-so-trendy 'facist') based soley on the merit of being to do with benefits.

Rather than stop and think about each thread on a case-by-case basis they defend literally whatever is discussed- even if the subject case is appalling they defend it often very emotionally.

It doesnt do them much favours to be defending some truly awful things.

I think there has to be a distinction between politically motivated riots, or protests that become violent, and criminal behaviour with no particular cause behind it.

There are campaigns to keep immigrants out of Oz, not let more in

Incorrect.

JosieZ Australian police are armed.

not incorrect, differentname, haven't you heard of Pauline Hanson, the One Nation Party, and the like?

There are active campaigns to get immigrants INTO Australia. 3 immigrants just started at my dh's place of work, all recently moved into Australia.

There was a recent campaign to get nurses & police into South Australia.

They do want people here, they are just choosy as to who they take. The immigration process is arduous at best, and they will not let people in who have nothing or little to offer the country.

Pauline Hanson -She has been convicted of obtaining property dishonestly, (yes, I know she was acquitted, but not before she was sentenced & spent time in prison) is a racist & all round not nice person. You have some 'politicians' like that in the UK, don't you?

And just as there are those in the UK who are against immigration, there are people here in Australia too, against it. But just as one party in the UK isn't reflective of the society as a whole, one party in Australia isn't reflective of society as a whole either.

Yes there are those too. But you said there are no campaigns to keep immigrants out of Australia, and there are. There always have been, some types of immigrants anyway.