to think some people's attitudes are disgusting?

[TheRhubarb]

A thread about a thread and a sense of despair. There is a thread on mumsnet suggesting that babies be taken from parents at birth if the parents are, in her words "scum". Is this what we have become?

As much as I loathe and detest what the rioters have done let's take a step back here. There have been riots in Greece over cuts, protests in Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. All we've had so far are a few half-hearted protests whilst the government pisses off on yet another holiday and banks and energy companies publish record profits yet again. Were these riots not predicted at all?

You have generations of children born into families who have never worked and who live in a cycle of poverty. The charities and organisations that worked tirelessly to keep youths off the streets and give them hope have been disbanded due to cuts. So far 2,220 charities have been directly affected, the largest number in Birmingham and the second largest in London. Research also shows the the most deprived areas are those which are hardest hit.

When you live in a society that bombards you with images of footballers wives sunning themselves on holiday and you have a government that decided to all take their holidays at the same time whilst many families are forced to cancel their holidays then you can have some understanding of the hotbed of anger and resentment. Job losses are huge, benefits cut, the maintenance allowance to enable youths to go to college is scrapped, petrol prices are huge, energy prices up again and everyone is blaming each other.

I'm sorry but when a society breaks down you have to look deeper than just parental influence, you have to look at what help there is available. Because as a society we are all responsible for what happens. We all have a part to play and just pointing the finger of blame at so called 'scum' is offensive and narrow minded. If there are scum out there then we, as a society created them. This country is in danger of becoming as corrupt as Italy. The energy companies get away with murder, no-one now bats an eyelid at petrol price hikes, the banks are still making huge profits and the government are targeting the poorest to make them pay for the mistakes of the rich. Where there is corruption on this scale there will be riots.

There is no excuse for tearing apart people's businesses or burning down homes, but just pointing the finger of blame at each other will not help.

Rant over.

I think the police would have struggled to be in more than four places at once (and that's in Croydon alone) even without the cuts.

Good article from the Guardian posted by rhetorician.

The bottom line is to stop giving houses to single mothers as it is an incentive to get pregnant. How else would a young single unemployed person get a council house ? If she has a council house it makes her an attractive option to an unemployed male who also has no other chance of a council house. In this scenario they are more likely to be unmotivated to put the child first.

A family member works in London and told me that the first thing a West Indian woman does on arriving in London is get pregnant. By having a 'British' baby they get a residency visa. This should change.

Another point I want to make is that listening to local young people in London being interviewed it's v hard to understand their accent/dialect. That would rule them out of alot of jobs. Polish people can come over here and learn good spoken English within a year and hold down a full -time job. The eyes of these kids need to be opened - I don't know - maybe take them out to residential homes for a month in the summer where they can work on farms maybe, do outward bound sort of stuff, learn to sail. Just let them see there is something outwith their local city area.

There are jobs in the Uk. Aberdeen is thriving with its oil industry. There are jobs in mining in Australia but you need an apprenticeship qualification as eg an electrician to get a job. But it doesn't occur to these kids to aim for it. They can't see beyond their street corner.

yanbu.

carmina, yes it is and I'm aware of that. I don't think there are any easy answers but neither do I think this is a black and white issue. It's far too easy to condemn the rioters as we all do, but we also need to delve deeper behind the reasons why. If children as young as 11 are being caught up in this then what has gone wrong and why is that happening? Same with the teaching assistant and the graphic designer, why were they getting involved?

It could be that the breakdown of society and values began with Thatcher, but we need a different kind of approach if that is the case and a way to rebuild our communities.

Soupy, there weren't enough police on the streets and as well as using Blackberry these people were also using Twitter and Facebook. Perhaps the police need to take social networking more seriously and the owners of Blackberry and Facebook also need to look closely at what they can do to shut down messages that incite violence and perhaps help identify suspects to the police.
But what will people do now that they know the police struggled to cope then and will struggle even more when the cuts are made? Will this kind of crime go up? Theft is already on the increase, do we need any more rises in crime?

Josie - you can't get a job in Australia for love nor money atm. There are campaigns to keep immigrants out of Oz, not let more in. My husband as a fully qualified digger driver make some enquiries about jobs over there and was told to forget it.

I spent a year unemployed and I have qualifications and experience. I applied for jobs that I could do easily and found there were usually 45 applicants for any one job. I never even got an interview with most or a letter thanking me for my application. I reckon that if I can find it hard and demoralising then they even more so.

But this is about more than unemployment. Some of the rioters were employed. This is about a breakdown of society for whatever reason and certainly the planned cuts I don't think will help at all.

No one has mentioned what a difference the availability to Tweet and send blackberry messages has made.

I think we may see some copycat trouble in other countries using this method to run rings round the police --- but only other countries that don't have armed police of which there are few. Australia is one I think, Norway?

If you remember the trouble when Prince Charles and Camilla's car was attacked. That should have provided a warning to the police as messaging was use there.

The Notting Hill Carnival comes up atthe end of Aug --- hmmmm. Wonder if it will be cancelled.

That's true Josie - poor people from abroad come here and seem to find work within days - yet our own people sit on their lazy arses (for their entire lives some of them) moaning about everything - maybe they don't want to work - maybe they'd rather rob Footlocker -
You can't force people to have a good work ethic - all you can do is encourage it, which we do - the rest is up to them.

Rhubarb, how could the police be at two retail estate out of town and at least three separate places in town, two of which involved major fires? given that other local forces were dealing with gyrate and actual riots? do you think there were police left sitting in the station drinking tea and eating doughnuts?

Some of the photos taken from twitter accounts show the kind of people involved. I don't think the person with a stack of 10 iPads and the caption "got me some iPads" and hashtags such as #fuckthepolice is bother about a youth club. I think the whole "it's not my fault, blame X Y or Z" is part of the problem. If it were the fault of X, Y or Z, then every affected person would be out there.

But they're not. Why is that?

Sometimes people have to take responsibility for their own actions rather than bleating about perceived inequalities . these supposed "outbreaks of anger" miraculously targeted phone shops, electrical retailers and sports wear shops yet missed the likes of Sainsburys and Hobbycraft right next door.

Totally Josie, well done for speaking the truth. I saw some teen mums being interview about this, and they said that basically they would nit have gotten pregnant if they were not going to get a council house, and if they had to work to pay for their kids. Herinthere the problem lies. Same for some people who have been on benefits and jobless. Don't see the point in working as they get more in benefit.

I agree that if the police had clamped down on the rioters the first night, then others wouldn't have seen it as a green light to go and do the same thing elsewhere.
I'm not blaming the police, they are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
The original incident was in protest at the shooting of a black man. A man who had a loaded gun (this has now been confirmed). Regardless of whether or not he shot it is irrelevant. If you have a gun, whether it be loaded/unloaded or even a replica, you take the risk that you might be shot, by the police or a gang member.
The second incident was supposedly in response to the police stopping and searching a young man.

How are the police supposed to react now? Wait until an officer gets shot? Never stop and search anyone again?

It is ridiculous. We need to support the police and make them a force again, not a service.

Therefore if these people who have multiple children, which they are not supporting themselves had to go to work and pay for them, they would not be having them. In a way the social welfare system has removed the responsibility that some should have, by making it advantageous to sit back reproduce and let the government take care of their kids. Meanwhile the men are long gone, reproducing with other girls

The notorious sperminator comes to mind. This has not gone on recently but through generations since social welfare reforms. The kids parents have done the same, as did their grandparents so there really are no adequate role models for these kids in some situations

Meant bus stop sperminator, sorry I'm on myphone

This is a political problem - we've rewarded feckless behaviour for too long - handwringing Liberals should be out there cleaning up the mess - they're partly responsible for it -

carminagoesprimal - absolutely! Give all the liberals a dustpan and brush and a looter to befriend.

We have spent years looking into why these things happen sitting up committees and discussing it ad infinitum meanwhile these people are absolved of all responsibility and pass that 'someone else will sort it' attitude onto their kids. They v rarely say we tried x y and z before we approached the state for help They go straight to the state and expect too much.

I'd feel better about the calls to 'look at the deeper issues' if the liberal agenda didn't mean discussing certain topics was taboo before you even start.

Children growing up without a father? We mustn't judge.

Culture of 'something for nothing' handouts? Get thee behind me, you Daily Mail reading fuck.

Lack of discipline in schools? Oh, so you think we should bring back caning, you child abuser.

Immigration, racial tensions, gangsterism? YOU FUCKING NAZI!!!!!

The two major changes in the UK in the last 40 year have been the collapse of the industrial working class and the rise of 'progressive' values. So there are few jobs for anyone whose talents are less intellectual and more manual, and the resulting alienated non-working-class 'mustn't be judged' as 'everyone is different' and 'we shouldn't generalise or stereotype'.

So instead we blame the welfare state for not doing enough . Excuse me, but WTF??? The decline of manual labour is partly at fault; our culture of barely-disguised greed and acquisitiveness doesn't help; but the sacred cows of liberal relativism also have a part to play in creating this swarm of tittering, sociopathic flashmobbing burglars through their advocacy of non-judgemental 'support' and hatred of anything that might be construed as public moral standards. Any analysis beyond 'pure criminality' is meaningless if these sacred cows stay untouchable.

It's ridiculous to compare the recent riots with the student protests.

The student protests were about grants and fees....and the majority of those taking part did so peacefully. The protest had foundation (how many times do I need to reiterate that Rhubarb)?

The recent riots had no basis....ALL involved were there to riot/create mayem/to steal etc

There was no rhyme or reason or explanation....and there are no easy solutions. You cannot say....if we did a,b or c we would see a reduction in these crimes.

But the riots were predicted

by the police, local working groups, some politicians and the Kaiser Chiefs

Its no wonder young working class kids feel they have nothing to lose,considering the sneering attitudes to anyone not fitting the nice middle class norm on here

OTheHugeMatanee - Spot on.

I'd like to see those rioters charged with lesser crimes put to the streets in the communities that they ransacked, and made to work from dawn till dusk cleaning and clearing the damage that they helped to create.

Then have contributions taken from their benefits/pay packets to help reimburse those whose businesses and homes have been destroyed.

I'm uncertain how such acts of violence and vandalism can be blamed on society as a whole. This is all about individual and parental responsibility, knowing what is right and wrong and the desire to live a good and productive life. Many people live in poverty and bring up well rounded children because they put all their efforts into parenting. Others don't and lack the skills to do this. The fact that a mother was filmed sending her small children into a shop to steal is a perfect example of this. How do you help these people?

OP, the inference that a professional's ability to care for a patient is adversely affected by their opinion of that person is unfair. As a nurse you are bound by the NMC code of conduct so provide the same level of care irrespective of your opinions. I try to look for the good in everyone but have been seriously challenged in this many times when facing torrents of abuse whilst trying to do my job, and this has come from all sectors of society.

I'm not sure how we move on from this and how we change the attitudes of the individuals who were involved in this violence. I felt sick watching the family run furniture shop in Croyden being destroyed by fire and also seeing shopkeepers locally having their livelihoods destroyed. I was heartened to see people out helping with the clean up locally and also so many people continuing their normal lives despite the smashed windows etc. The people who were involved in this were not motivated by anger they were motivated by greed. I don't see how David Cameron and other senior politicians being on holiday has any bearing on the situation.

Not all working class people riot, and cause the devastation seen recently. Yes I come from a working class family but we would never do such things. Yes what I said previously is true, put your hand on your ears and sing la la la.

Rebels without a cause..........or reason