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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

In this day and age to think

452 replies

BimboNo5 · 06/08/2011 08:51

An establishment like 'Hooters' is pathetic and wrong?

OP posts:
stillfeel18inside · 08/08/2011 17:54

"I would feel exactly the same if a chain only employed fake tanned beefcakes for women (or men!) to ogle at"

I'd be there like a shot, but that's just me...

catgirl1976 · 08/08/2011 18:55

I would just like to clarify where I stand on this.
Hooters is not to my taste. I probably wouldn?t go there and I wouldn?t take children to one. I do not think the OP is unreasonable to think Hooters is ?sad? or ?wrong? as she is entitled to have that opinion. However, it is only that ? her opinion and other are equally entitled to disagree with that opinion.

What I object to on this thread is the idea that a woman?s right to make her own choices should be compromised when those choices do not adhere to views of posters. I find that particularly difficult to swallow when it is wrapped up and presented to me as ?feminism? by other women.
To me, feminism is the belief that women should have equal right - socially, politically, financially, culturally and should be able to make their own free choices within the law. I think most people would agree with those principles.

However, principles are easy to have. I believe in Freedom of Speech. That is easy to say. It is harder to hold fast to that principle when you hear airtime being given to people whose views you diametrically oppose. I intensely dislike the views of the BNP, and I find it uncomfortable hearing their views aired. And yet they MUST retain the right to air those view whether I agree with them or not if the principle of free speech is to be upheld.

Likewise ? I believe if you believe that a woman should have equality and freedom, you must uphold her right to that, even when her actions or the choices she make are not choices or actions you approve. For some, a woman choosing to use her body or sexuality to make money is a choice they find abhorrent. You are entitled to that view, but you must still uphold her right to make that choice.

What happens however, is those that do not approve of this choice tend to claim that the woman is NOT making a choice but is being coerced or exploited. There are clear and terrible example of the exploitation of women in society and it is right to oppose these. However, working at Hooters is not such an example. Women chose to work there. Women are free to leave that employment at any time. This isn?t exploitation. It may be tacky, it may not to be to every ones taste and yes the sex appeal of the waitresses is the main selling point. But without force, deception or coercion it is NOT exploitation.

Bimbo and others have said that in an ideal they would like to see Hooters closed down because it sexualises women. Fine. Of course they have the right to that preference. But they do not have the right to make that choice.

If Hooters was banned because it sexualises women, where we do go from there? Do we say ?Well, Hooters has gone ? that?s the sexualisation of women ended?? Of course not.

So we either accept that banning Hooters was a rather futile excerise, but hey ho ? or we carry on. We ban make up as it sexualises women, We ban short skirts as they sexualise women. We ban high heels. We impose a code of dress for women. We ban careers where women can use their sex appeal for commercial gain. We look at other careers that sexualise women ? fashion model, make up counter, etc etc. And where are we then? Not looking at much freedom or choice or equality. (I am assuming at no point have we bothered with a dress code for men or worried about their sexualisation ? only womens).

If we want women to have choice and equality we have to accept that some women will make choices we don?t agree with. Just like if we want freedom of speech we will have to hear views we don?t like.
There has been a lot of judging of women?s choices on this thread, there have been a lot of examples of people seeking to invalidated women?s choices suggesting they could not possibly have made the freely ? simply because the poster does not agree with them. This is insulting to women and promotes the idea women are easily coerced and do not know their own minds. That to me is not a good message and not one that ?feminism? should be trying to communicate.

I for one do not see how women are better off if they are forced or expected to adhere to a code of conduct and way of behaving, whether that code is determined and enforced by men ? or by other women. In fact I think it is worse when we do it to ourselves.

No one has to like Hooters. The OP is entitled to think it is sad and wrong. But if you really support freedom, equality and choice you cannot revoke those privileges when you disagree with the choices women make. Nor an you seek to simply invalidate them. Closing Hooters removes a woman?s choice to work there and enforces your own standards of conduct.

Opposing a womans right to use her sexuality for her own gain isn?t allowing her freedom or equality. Opposing a womens right to use her own body in whatever she wishes is not freedom, Wishing to control how a woman dresses, whether for work or not is not freedom. These are merely new forms of oppression that suit a particular viewpoint and opinion.

People can have any opinion they want. But people should not seek to limit and devalue the choices women make, especially when they call themselves feminists.

HopeForTheBest · 08/08/2011 19:03

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on request of its author.

EssentialFattyAcid · 08/08/2011 19:06

Nobody here seeks to take away the choices of women or to dictate to women, catgirl, why do you keep defending some imaginary point that nobody is in dissention with?

HopeForTheBest · 08/08/2011 19:07

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on request of its author.

HopeForTheBest · 08/08/2011 19:08

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on request of its author.

EssentialFattyAcid · 08/08/2011 19:09

HopeForTheBest if you are unable to see that the existence of Hooters etc has an impact on wider issues for women then I do think you need special vision glasses tbh.

EssentialFattyAcid · 08/08/2011 19:13

I am simply pointing out that creating an arguement out of points that we have all agreed on from the start and continue to agree on is not taking forward the debate.

catgirl1976 · 08/08/2011 19:14

My point, EFA is that Bimbo and a few others would like women NOT to have the choice to work in places like Hooters as they would like them banned. They would like women not to have the choice to commoditise their sexuality as they believe this is wrong. Therefore - if they would like women not to have this choice they are by default seeking to restrict their choices and dictate to them that they cannot use their sexuality for financial gain.

EssentialFattyAcid · 08/08/2011 19:21

Has anyone on this thread said that they would like to make Hooters illegal? Where?

catgirl1976 · 08/08/2011 19:22

Yes. They have. Would you like me to trawl back through and find the posts?

EssentialFattyAcid · 08/08/2011 19:25

Nobody here is " seeking to restrict their choices and dictate to them that they cannot use their sexuality for financial gain". This is another fabrication of an arguement that is not there.

Perhaps if we had a different thread title, say, "do you consider Hooters to have an overall a positive or negative influence on society?" we might get a better quality of debate.

catgirl1976 · 08/08/2011 19:27

They are EFA as they are saying places like Hooters where women's sexuality is used for profit should be banned.

I agree the second thread title you suggest would have a different response.

EssentialFattyAcid · 08/08/2011 19:28

By all means find the posts as previously it seems to me that you have been creating all sorts of implications and interpretations of your own from posts rather than reading what is actually written.

catgirl1976 · 08/08/2011 19:28

Fine. Give me an hour to trawl through.

EssentialFattyAcid · 08/08/2011 19:31

catgirl my impression is that you and I are in fact in agreement on a lot of things around this issue but I am frustrated by this arguement

catgirl1976 · 08/08/2011 19:50

I think we are in agreement on many points too EFA, but there are posters on this thread who would prefer places like Hooters to be banned and would prefer women not be be able to use their sexuality for gain should they chose to (not you in fairness). Some examples:

SiamoFottuti Sun 07-Aug-11 12:36:20
and the norms accepted in our society has an affect on us all, rather obviously. I'd prefer my society not to use womens bodies to make money.

BimboNo5 Sun 07-Aug-11 12:39:38
Im not judging other womens choices, but i'd rather it not be a 'choice' that someone who needs a job also needs to be slim young and attractive and wearing skimpy clothing to earn a living as a 'waitress'. They are waitressing NOT stripping so why do they need to dress in revealing clothing?

BimboNo5 Sun 07-Aug-11 16:58:23
In an ideal world I think hooters should be banned yes. First of all lets not deny its out and out sexist I mean to open a restaurant using a name which is slang for breasts and insists their waitresses wear revealing clothing really is not something I think is acceptable as part of a food chain that caters for families and imo is just another way to objectify women as part of everyday life.

BimboNo5 Sun 07-Aug-11 17:16:18
But thats a moot argument if Hooters was banned is it not?
I really dislike the normalisation of sexualising women and girls in everyday culture, everywhere we look these days magazines, papers, tvs girls and women are objectified in every way. I do not agree with this happening in a bloody restaurant as well and the less it happens the better. If this makes me bitter, humourless, opressed or any of the other words commonly used about people who object to this than so be it.

trice Sun 07-Aug-11 17:44:57
I would like to live in a world where hooters could not exist. Therefore I will never know how wonderful the service is in there.

I have had a nice bacon sandwich and a cup of tea from "Big Baps" on the A59 though. The owner was fully dressed as I remember.

MrsClown Mon 08-Aug-11 13:07:02
BIMBONO5 - please go on the OBJECT website. I am a member and trust me you are not the only woman who doesnt want to put up with it.

(The OBJECT website the poster above refers to wishes to ban lap dancing clubs, Hooters, etc etc)

catgirl1976 · 08/08/2011 19:57

Apologies - the Object website wishes to change the way lap dancing clubs are licensed.

SiamoFottuti · 08/08/2011 21:12

don't misquote me, I never said ban anything. I'd like society to self-regulate by growing the fuck up and not giving these places a commercial reason to operate.

catgirl1976 · 08/08/2011 21:20

I haven't mis-quoted you I have copied and pasted your post to back up my assertion which was:

there are posters on this thread who would prefer places like Hooters to be banned and would prefer women not be be able to use their sexuality for gain should they chose to

I believe that you would prefer women not to be able to use thier sexuality for commercial gain.

I think when you say

I'd prefer my society not to use womens bodies to make money.

and

I'd like society to self-regulate by growing the fuck up and not giving these places a commercial reason to operate.

you are saying you would prefer women not to be able to use their sexuality for commercial reasons.

SiamoFottuti · 08/08/2011 21:24

oh ffs, do you understand self-regulate? I would prefer to live in a society where women do not use their bodies to make money. This is not the same as "not allowed to" or "banned".

If you are going to talk with the grown-ups you might need a dictionary.

catgirl1976 · 08/08/2011 21:35

Of course I understand "self-regulate".

However, you are suggesting that your view of how society should function and how women should act is correct. So correct that should it come to pass it would only be society "self regulating".

Should society "self regulate" in such a way it conformed to your beliefs and preferences, women would NOT be able to chose to use their bodies to make money. Therefore you would prefer they were not able to as you would prefer society changed to make this impossible.

I doubt you will be able to grasp this. I am not going to keep arguing with you as I think it is a little unfair on you.

SiamoFottuti · 08/08/2011 21:44

If you think I'm the only person who thinks that it would be a step forward for women to be valued as whole people instead of body parts you need to talk to more people. There is nothing impressive about women having the choice to be exploited.
Trying to paint me as some kind of ideological dictator is ridiculous. Talk to a few feminists, read a few books, hell get out a mirror and talk to your fanjo, but do try to raise your conciousness just a little. You're a few decades behind!

catgirl1976 · 08/08/2011 21:48

Like i said. It isn't fair to you. I will not be engaging with you any further as it is beginning to feel a bit cruel.

SiamoFottuti · 08/08/2011 21:52

yeah its not fair, I'm used to grown up women, your inane chatter is a little painful on the eyes. You know you need more than bolding to make a point?

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