to rather intensely dislike Harriet Harman?

[grovel]

Naggy and bossy at the same time. And so tribal.

You see Malcontent? We're just too serious

"
And, btw, I think HH was right when she said that fathers aren't "essential"... DS is managing pretty fine without his father around..."
How old is he? How do you know how he'll turn out to be in 30 years time?

Sorry but I find it offensive to say that fathers aren't essential. Would you like it someone said mothers aren't essential, and that if a man got bored of his wife, he could kick her out of the house and prevent her from seeing her own children?

Sorry but I think the double standards in this country stink, and are damaging to everyone, men, women and children. It is no longer we have such a high amount of NEETs and youth unemployment (young men in particular), when we have a generation of children growing up without fathers to teach them how to be men.

My children's father clearly wasn't essential because he walked out on us when they were very young and I have HAD TO raise them all on my own.

And they are fine.

So he wasn't essential, was he?

I believe that this reference to HH's statement that fathers aren't essential is a reference to a report in 1990 called The Family Way. Wikipedia states that the controversial remark runs as follows:

"it cannot be assumed that men are bound to be an asset to family life or that the presence of fathers in families is necessarily a means to social cohesion"

So, it's over twenty years old and it doesn't say that fathers aren't needed, but rather that fathers are not automatically a signal of a perfect family. Sounds perfectly reasonable in the context of families who may not have a father figure as a central figure - single parent families, lesbian couples, widows, etc.

OK, fathers are esseential. Those bad mothers who are keeping their fathers away for trivial issues like abuse, etc, you're damaging your child. (Yes, abuse is the most common reason a mother will stop her xP from seeing his kids. If a mother was abusing her child or husband, I'd advise the husband to try and get away from her)

You know, as a single mother, I've been looked down on so many times. Got 50 questions about where DS's father was last year when I brought him back from holiday. If his father was about, all he'd learn from him is that it's ok to abuse women, you don't need to work as the government will pay their way, and the most important part of the day is midday when the pub opens. So no. Not all fathers are essential. Good fathers are, but not all. Likewise. A child has no need for a bad mother.

If a male MP stood up in parliament and said 'mothers aren't essential' - I wonder what the reaction from feminists would be?

HH has said some truly appalling things in her time - that's why she's seen as a joke by everyone outside of her little circle of pathetic mates.

And it doesn't matter how long ago she said it - she still thinks it today.

Do you recall some of John Redwood's statements about single mothers during 'Back to Basics'? No? They were vile.

I love Harriet Harman, for her commitment to feminism regardless of the nasty and often personal flack she gets, but mainly I like her because she annoys that twat Jeremy Clarkson.

Go back and read HH's statement. I agree with her. Not all fathers are assets.

Not all mothers are assets. Why did she single out fathers?

Why are mothers more essential than fathers?

She singled out fathers because she's a man hating feminist - she's one of the reasons young women are turning their backs on feminism ( and yes, there is a backlash ) and getting on with their lives -

Funny, that. Especially with the slutwalk movement, I'm seeing more and more young women turn to feminism.

Can we repeat this, children? "Feminism does not mean we hate men."

And mainly, she singled out fathers as they are more likely to abandon their families, or be abusive, so therefore, less likely to be the RP. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, as a close friend is a single father. His ex has no contact with their DS, and he's a pretty good father.

Funny, that. Especially with the slutwalk movement, I'm seeing more and more young women turn to feminism.
You must live a very sheltered, middle-class existence. I don't know any women that would class themselves as feminists.

Can we repeat this, children? "Feminism does not mean we hate men."
You say that, but everything else you say seems to indicate otherwise.

And mainly, she singled out fathers as they are more likely to abandon their families, or be abusive, so therefore, less likely to be the RP.
Why do you suppose this is? Could it be because fathers have no kind of security within the family, they know that at any given moment, the mother can have them kicked out of the house and family, and there is very little they can do about it?

Do you think it mothers had the same fate hanging over them, we might find a lot more mothers displaying problem behaviour?

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, as a close friend is a single father. His ex has no contact with their DS, and he's a pretty good father.
Let me guess, he's a feminist too.

It's irresponsible of a politician to say fathers aren't essential - what message is that sending out to young men and society in general? -

It is incredibly rare for a man to abandon their children, except when they are forced out by the mother. Either by legal means or by abusive means, making the father's life so unbearable that they have no choice but to leave.

I think the whole system is ridiculous at the moment, and favours the feckless and makes it very difficult for traditional responsible men to raise a family the way most people did in the past.

Or perhaps, tartydoris it is you who lives the sheltered life (without making any assumptions about class here) if you have never met a feminist?

Surely the 'fathers aren't essential' was in response to the Tory stuff in the late 80s/early 90s (was it Tebbit?) about single parent families having no male role model and how disastrous this inevitably was? I think she's countering an argument, rather than stomping round in her femmo bovver boots saying 'we hate dads'.

HH is a pious clown with a holier than thou attitude. Bizarrely she was the most able women in the line up of dismal women cabinet ministers in Gordon Brown's administration.

Top hypocrite - Witness her stance on the MP's Expenses debate and Women only candidates - good idea, until it affected her husband.

And I am as uncomfortable, personally, making arguments about the majority of men who have no contact with their children being abusive or this being the case through their own choice as I am uncomfortable with arguing that women kick the men out to be unpleasant and then don't let the children see him. I've seen cases of both, I don't know which is more often true.

However, given that there are many, many families where only the mother is resident, I think it's clear that fathers aren't essential (though many may be desirable) and I don't see the harm in affirming that just because a household may not have an adult male resident, the children are doomed to a life of petty crime or whatever.

You must live a very sheltered, middle-class existence. I don't know any women that would class themselves as feminists.
I really, honestly don't. I'm about as working class as you could get, and have probably experienced enough to fill a couple of autobiographies. Yet I know of SEVERAL women who have declared themselves feminists in the past two/three years. Different grades of feminists, perhaps, but they still declare themselves femiinists. Some of these are very WC women, like myself. Others are MC.

You say that, but everything else you say seems to indicate otherwise.
Please highlight one thing I've said that indicates I hate men. I'm pretty sure my closest friends would disagree

^Why do you suppose this is? Could it be because fathers have no kind of security within the family, they know that at any given moment, the mother can have them kicked out of the house and family, and there is very little they can do about it?

Do you think it mothers had the same fate hanging over them, we might find a lot more mothers displaying problem behaviour?^
Lets just readress this. GOOD fathers are involved in their DC's upbringing from day one, not abusive, and in the event of a split, the mother RARELY prevents access. The main reason for mothers refusing access is because of previous abuse, or fears that the father does not know how to care for DC because he's never lifted a finger to care for them. If these ostracised fathers REALLY wanted access, then there's the courts. And most access cases see access granted.

Let me guess, he's a feminist too.
I've never asked him. Why would it matter if he was?

I think Tebbitt was right, and the amount of crime committed by young men growing up in fatherless households would seem to bear that out.

Do you really think that a woman can be a positive role model for a young man, in the same way that a father can be? The way that teenage boys deal with entering into the adult world is very difficult to that of teenage girls.

Not to say that NO mothers can do it, but I think it's fair to say that it's much harder for a single mother to succesfully raise sons than it is for a two parent family.