to rather intensely dislike Harriet Harman?

[grovel]

Naggy and bossy at the same time. And so tribal.

False allegations of rape make up a small percentage of the total allegations, but they do happen and I am always deeply uncomfortable when people say that they don't. I have been involved in a case where the complainant ultimately admitted that it was a false allegation.

However, there is a big cultural reluctance to accept that any man is a rapist where he does not fit the stereotype and this inevitably leads to rapes going unreported, and to a high drop-out rate of complainants before the case gets to trial.

I think the actual law/procedural changes in the legal system have probably gone as far as they can without starting to cross over beyond what is acceptable to our overriding ideals and beliefs in our justice system. However, there are still improvements that could be made to the support system that carries the victim through the process, and to the communication with the victim (and all victims in all sorts of cases for that matter).

But rape conviction rates won't improve until the attitude of society towards women who are raped improves. People who sit on juries carry their prejudices and misconceptions with them. If there isn't an automatic assumption that the woman must have done something wrong then people who sit on juries might approach things from a more balanced point of view.

Isn't campaigning about rape something that benefits all women?

How is campaigning about rape a career advancement for me? I don't work in a related sector.

As for persisting in a POV because of the overwhelming urge to be proven right - even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary - I'd say the "lot of women lie about rape" brigade are winning hands down.

Sunshine beat me to it.

The problems lie with court systems, the juries, the way judges sum up trials, rape myths, etc. Not with the police. No one has said it does. But the conviction rate for rape is too low... It's lower than most other serious crimes.

NOW tell me we should give up the fight?

I don't know a single person in RL - male or female, who think rape is the women's fault. Where are all these people with prejudices and misconceptions ? - I don't know any.
I know feminists however, who think all men are lying and all women are telling the truth. If DSK has a few feminists on the jury he'll be hung drawn and quartered before any evidence is even heard.
Man = guilty, women = innocent, - that's why you can't take all feminists seriously.

So, you've never heard the following phrases

"She was asking for it, dressed like that"

"Shouldn't have been out on her own after dark"

"Y'know, she was flirting with him all night. Shouldn't have lead him on"

"Well, she went back to his place, what did she think was going to happen"

"Well, it's not really rape if they're married, is it?"

... We don't talk about the So-Called Feminists Club...

:( We've all failed, haven't we...

You won't find another peanut over there...

Criticising the British Justice System is just plain ridiculous. We have one of the most robust, thorough and fairest systems in the world. It's hard to get conviction for ANY crime. And with good reason.
As for somebody saying that juries have their own prejudices re rape. Well, yes, of course they have. But that is the case for any crime. How are you proposing we change that? Have judge-only rape trials? Have all women juries for rape cases (yes, very fair...).
Their is the nagging sense that the SCFs on this thread would be happy to see more rape convictions at any cost - ie even if it means innocent men being sent down. That's what grates.

I find this really depressing I really do - I hate all this fighting between the sexes, there's only two human species on earth - men and women - we've been living together now for 1000's of years and I can't understand why this is still happening? - My son is 11 years old, he left primary school yesterday. I picked him up from his leavers disco last night and all the children were so happy together, as we left they started crying - sad to be leaving each other and going their separate ways. girls and boys, all hugging and genuinely sad to be parting. I stood there and wondered when that all changes - when that innocence turns into sexism, feminism, and war - Where do they learn it?
Women ( and men ) have been campaigning for women's rights and writing about feminism for centuries - ( Mary Wollstonecraft was campaigning in 1792) - so much has been achieved - important issues have been addressed - I just feel that today's feminists are after nothing more than a fight with men - they'll pick on anything ( David Cameron saying 'calm down dear' a classic example ) - it's just a joke now -

when that innocence turns into sexism, feminism, and war - Where do they learn it?

Possibly from people who equate feminism with sexism and war and think that 'today's feminists are after nothing more than a fight with men' given the stats on rape and domestic violence.

Sheesh - I can't think how it could have been put more clearly fantasticvoyage - women want to see more RAPISTS go to prison. So that they're not a threat to other women. The current low level of conviction puts ALL women at risk. And you're worried that to change this current dangerous state of affairs would put a tiny number of innocent men at risk of being accused of something that they didn't do. Jailing innocent men wouldn't change the situation at all, so why would we want that?

It was me that said juries carry their own prejudices and you will note that this was in the same post as stating that I believe that the justice system has gone as far as it can in making actual legislative and procedural changes to ensure better treatment of complainants in rape cases.

As I said in that post, juries (any jury, any crime) carry over their day-to-day prejudices. Of course it is the same for other crimes. But the difference is that there are far more prejudices and misconceptions in society concerning rape than, say burglary.

And no, I was quite clearly not suggesting judge-only trials or all-female juries, hence my comments about the developments in the legal system. What I was suggesting was that if in-roads could be made into society's attitude towards rape complaints generally, juries would not be as likely to harbour those attitudes.

they'll pick on anything ( David Cameron saying 'calm down dear' a classic example )

Feminists have no sense of humour and overreact?

HOUSE!!!!

Don't think so ELNP - nobody's accused feminists of being hairy yet........

I've already marked that off.

We're only SCF's remember.

NOOOooooooo.

Feminists are hairy.

HOUSE

[cheating SCF]