To feel upset about sil not breastfeeding?

[wheelygirl]

hi, new here so pls be gentle!

My dh's brother and his wife had a baby boy four days ago. She said she had a lovely birth and was out of hospital the next day.

We visited them yesterday at home and sil was bottle feeding. Now, I don't give a shit how people feed their children, I don't have any kids (am pg)But I got quite upset because her ds kept trying to breastfeed from her. He was refusing the bottle and kept nuzzling into her chest. Her breasts were leaking as well and she told me she was hand expressing and chucking it away. I asked her why she didnt give it to her ds and she told me that she doesn't want him to get used to breast milk. He had the formula milk then vomited it back up five minutes later. He was really crying and it made me feel awful when he was turning his head to her breast and opening his mouth.

She then went on to tell me that he hasn't even had colostrum because it was too much of a faff to get him to latch on. Colostrum is the important stuff right?

Why do I feel so upset about this? I felt her ds was doing something so instinctive and she should at least have tried to breastfeed. I understand that some women have great difficulty breastfeeding and formula is a more than adequate alternative but at least try and do it.

Aibu?

PCB's may well be higher in humans (it would depend on the humans tested of course, I am a vegetarian so I should think mine are comparatively low, but that's just an example) but cows certainly don't sit about eating toxin-free grass - think acid rain etc. However there are plenty of other ingredients in formula that will §have been subject to environmental pollutants. I am NOT saying to suggest formula is bad/poison/wrong etc, simply saying the argument that breast milk may contain PCB's a weak one for those wishing to promote FF.

Excellent post, clucky - a badly needed dose of perspective. Well said.

Breastfeeding rates for disadvantaged socio-economic women are cause for concern. DoH has calculated that, if all women bf their babies, the NHS would save:-

£35million treating babies with gastro-enteritis.
400 women?s lives from dying of breast cancer.
500 premature babies from developing necrotizing enterocolitis, 100 of whom die.

After six weeks bf rates have dropped to 40%, and 90% of those who stop say they wanted to breastfeed for longer. Drop off rates are higher for disadvantaged groups at 4 months only 13% of social class 5 babies receive any breastmilk at all.

Thanks CloudyDays :) I think Id best go back to Style and Beauty where I normally lurk!

Proper storage preparation and cooking of food good hygiene and hand washing can help prevent gastroenteritis , also there is a vaccine but jcvi has decided it's not cost effective to implement it although WHO are trying to change this

Using contraception that stops ovulation reduces the risk of breast cancer

Given steroids to the mother when in preterm labour and adding probiotics and immuniglobins to feeds also lower the risk of necrotizing enterocolitis

Breast feeding is not the only way

Oh Tiktok your dogma is unscientific and is likely to be an impedement to research and proper scientific debate. You do not appear to have a basic grasp of how science is done. At best you appear to be clinging to an outdated system of scientific thought which was demolished by Popper in the early 20th century.

Real scientists work by testing hypothesis and publishing the findings in peer reviewed papers. That is the gold standard until it is rebutted by another peer-reviewed paper of similar or better quality. Having scanned the ISI Web of Knowledge (the international academic scientist?s database) I can state quite categorically that there have been no scientific papers rebutting the one I linked.

On a personal note, before attempting to dismiss someone?s post, telling them that they are out of their depth and trying to patronise and belittle them, you really ought to check that they are not posting from an IP address inside one of Europe?s leading centres of scientific research.

Klad, don't talk to me about science and research as if I did not know about it. Believe me, I do - that is my background and without outing myself, I can say with confidence that you are making a tit of yourself here :)

I am saying this because I think you are trying to impress me with an IP address (how on earth could I check your IP address, FFS? Even if I could, posting from a research centre is no guarentee of the person hitting the keyboard).

No, you will not find anything by scanning web of knowledge/web of science. It takes (as you no doubt know, seeing as how you are such a fabulously intelligent boffin) a while to get a peer-reviewed paper published to take apart a previous one.

Carlsen's paper was not really about breastfeeding at all. Carlsen's paper was about the hormonal environment of the fetus in utero, which was interesting, but he then went on to state he thought it led to success/failure of breastfeeding. At the time it was published, he and his institution made a song and dance about his findings which were not based on his data at all. It was laughed at round the world three times and back again as a piece of 'science' - Ben Goldacre made the most accessible comment on it:

bengoldacre.posterous.com/breastfeeding-nonsense-in-the-media-where-did

Like I say, you're out of your depth. Sorry * if that's patronising.

• not really

I apologise to Klad. I did not need to be as chippy, and I did not need to disparage her use of the Carlsen paper in quite the rude way I did.

I did so because I was annoyed at her suggestion that people with an 'open mind' might be interested in the trashy link she posted, and because her previous posts had irritated me.

I see you have a difficult history, Klad, and this might account for much of the contents of your posts. I'm sorry.

I cite a peer reviewed scientific paper and you attempt to rebutt it with a blog. And I'm the one making myself look like a tit and out of my depth?

:o

I was not rebutting it.

My link was to a comment, which explained the furore about the media reporting of that paper.

(Do you lump all blogs together? Do you not acknowledge that scientists comment scientifically on science blogs, using science in their comments?)

I was showing how the 'paper' you linked to (your link was a media report of it) was not what it was reported to be (ie some rubbish about breastfeeding not being better than formula).

tiktok, i noticed your comment on conciseness and i think you are right, that your posts dont seem agressive partly because of the depth and length of what you are saying, the reasoning and explanations and like here, if you feel you have been 'sharp' you come back and apologise! :)

and imo regardless of science of COURSE bmilk is going to be better, it is made by mothers uniquely for their babies, it doesnt take a genius to realise that natures on milk is of course going to be best!

formula milk is an alternative that i am hugely grateful for.

with regards to bonding and all other aspects of feeding i think they can be achieved with bottles and not solely by bfeeding, i mean in terms of comfort, cuddles, closeness and skin to skin etc i know i did all that and continued to co-sleep, sling use etc even with the two who i switched to formula with.

Given the concerns over formula's so-called huge contribution to gastroenteritis in babies, it would seem extremely manipulative and contrary to having babies' best interests at heart for mainstream health policy and organisations such as NCT to refuse to provide advice on making up formula safely. No?

Saving the NHS money is not a valid argument for breastfeeding. Until the time when all breastfeeders and their infants do not ever do anything which might increase their risk, from some kind of universal baseline, of needing to use its resources. And, to quote the mantra of Hairfulofsnakes, that's not going to happen. There are people further ahead in the queue to bash about using tax payers' money than post-natal women.

I notice that nobody has thought it worth to comment on the studies which show that babies with a risk of developing asthma (family history) might be better off being formula fed, as a precaution.

And clearly the 'debate' becomes pointless if someone can post such unadulterated nonsense such as they have never seen a baby enjoying a bottle feed. Unless she has never seen any other babies but her own, in which case the statement would be disingenuous anyway.

I agree, 4madboys, but as it happens, the science is not in the least weak or controversial and continues to demonstrate that in public health terms (not necessarily in every individual) not breastfeeding leads to negative health outcomes.

Obviously, good quality formula is a necessity, for babies who are not breastfed, and equally obviously, mothers and babies attach just fine whatever.....it's the quality and consistency of the relationship that counts in that respect, not the substance of the milk.

My dd seemed very happy and content when she was eventually given a bottle. It gave her what her body craved; hydration and nutrition. I still held her close and looked at her as I fed her.

Wow I didn't realise that the NCT wouldn't have given guidance on making up a formula feed. I was advised against going to NCT classes (I wanted to go as I thought it would have been a good way to meet other mums in my area) because I wasn't allowed to BF and I had heard that they were extremely strong advocates of BF and would be unlikely to support me in my need to FF and also because of my medical history as I would need to have a csection. I went to my local NHS ante natal classes which were as informative as I needed them to be and I also had a very supportive midwife and amazing obstetrician throughout my pregnancy which was a great help. I'm glad I didn't go now as I would have felt like a complete outsider and the classes probably would have upset me in highlighting my difference to other mums. I don't mean to upset any mums who did attend NCT classes as I have met alot of people who enjoyed them and made good friendships through them.

"Obviously, good quality formula is a necessity, for babies who are not breastfed, and equally obviously, mothers and babies attach just fine whatever.....it's the quality and consistency of the relationship that counts in that respect, not the substance of the milk."

So really, what are we arguing about?

I think, quite understandably, it is actually bf mothers who are "defensive" because they are in the minority and do (as reported on MN) receive negative comments in RL about BF. Here on MN though, it's FFers who are attacked by some BFers

can we not all love each other ??????

razzle, you're right. No one professionally concerned with the health and wellbeing of formula fed babies should refuse to give information on the safe way to make up formula - but NCT does not refuse to do this at all. There is an NCT factsheet on this, and any breastfeeding counsellor would be able to share one with anyone who wanted one. What you don't get is instruction on how to do this in the antenatal breastfeeding class.

HVs and midwives should never refuse to share this info with mothers and if they do then people should COMPLAIN!!

clucky, I am pretty sure you would not have been criticised or anything like that in an NCT class - I am an NCT bfc and I and my colleagues often get people at the class who are not sure about bf and the occasional person who is not planning to bf at all. But it is the breastfeeding class and I can understand someone giving it a miss if they know for sure they won't be breastfeeding.

Thanks Tiktok I wasn't aware of that and would have defintely thought about the classes if I had realised. I can understand that they are beneficial to alot of people. My pregnancy was an emotional time and I was quite fragile so i just thought that the pressure on breastfeeding and having a natural birth rather than a csection (which I had also been told the NCT wouldn't really support) would have been too much. In the end I wouldn't have been able to attend anyway as from week 28 onwards they thought my baby would need to be delivered because of my medical problems but we both held on until 37 and a half weeks and I had a nice healthy baby which was the most important thing for me :)

clucky, in every NCT class I have ever done, there have been 2 or 3 couples (out of 7 or 8) who know they are either definitely going to have a section or else likely to. I often include info on bf after a section, and point out that you can sometimes do skin to skin still in theatre if you ask in advance (so they can arrange things for you).

There is usually a class which includes specific preparation for a section. Some teachers use playmobil figures to 'set the scene' in the theatre, so you know in advance what the roles of people there are.

Glad everything went well for you.

Thanks Tiktok. That's really good and I am sure it helps alot of people - it sounds like alot of thought goes into your classes. For many people I suppose it is their first operation and it would be a very scary scenario going into a theatre and of course people can also end up with an emergency section so your class must be very reassuring. As I wasn't allowed to BF, my son was put on me for skin to skin contact which was lovely and I had been told before that this would be very important.

tiktok - my NHS class barely touched on Caesarians - and I was totally unprepared for my EMCS. I'm sure the trauma me and DS1 went through affected BF. I did have skin to skin but his little nose was really bruised and, with hindsight, I think he was in pain and not latching properly. Had crap help in the hospital