to think middle class parents, when shite, are a special sort of shite?

[CrapolaDeVille]

I am middle class, I think, but find the overtly 'darling, sweetie' set of parents particularly painful. Obviously bad/good parenting isn't reserved for any group or set, but I have only noticed middle class parents do the 'push my child first, I couldn't give a crap about fairness' sort of parenting.

EG. Today my 2yr old at a picnic with pre schoolers and their younger siblings. (dc4 was celebrating last day at preschool.) I gave dc5 my phone to flick through a story so I could eat my lunch and could stop running after him. Another child, boy aged 4, called (let's say) Jim wanted the phone. I said no as my dc was looking. He could look too. He tried to snatch making my dc5 upset (in that screamy frustrated 2 yr old way) Jim's mother says "you can share Darling" as Jim is crushing my child who is half his size, she deosn't ask him to get off. Now my dc is crying, she says "share Darling, come on" (I'm not sure who she is talking to) So then awkwardly I have to say "Jim you're crushing dc5", he tries to take the phone. So I put the phone back in my bag...."I want that phone" Jim says. I say "no it's away now". Jim pushes into me and punches me full force with both fists. Mother says FUCK ALL. Not five minutes later she tells him what " a good boy" he is and "so gorgeous" she could eat him Darling sweetie. She's so proud of his behaviour at the picnic,.

EG. DC5 gets scratched on the face with a stick, by a 4 yr old looking straight at me. Mother sort of shrugs and says nothing.

DC5 later on a bit cross and kicks a nearly empty bottle over, sheer naughtiness and devilment, before I can even speak mother of stick weilding child shouts "for goodness sake DC5" then spots me and says sorry. I was so fed up by this point that I just said "to be honest I expect nothing less from X parents" and left, in the knowledge that I'll never see them again.

EG Two little girls tell DC5 to get off trampoline saying 'it's ours get off', DC5 complies. Then I give him his football.....they come over shouting at him to share, but as he's only just got it he wanted to kick it first. I just found myself supporting my son in not sharing, even though I think it's important to share, I'm really cross with myself.

This is my last child. I have spent the last ten years watching my dcs play fair, take turns and be generally kind only to see the other mc brats not only put themselves first but parents whole heartedly endorse and encourage this behaviour.

I do know lots of other nice mc parents, but this type of parent is completely reserved for the middle class slightly older mother.(AGAIN to reiterate this is not all mc parents.)

No, of course not applying to additional needs - nowt to do with nurture.

And yes, neglect in infancy absolutely damages a child with regards to brain development - there is much more limited success with children after a certain age.

I am from Islington.

I know all about this.

I moved out but they are now following me to East London.

I have noticed an upsurge in woodne bicycles and very expensive scooters.

Its hard to ignore them as they are usually being driven straight into me as mum trills 'XXXX (avoiding name sterotyping) darling dont hurt yourself' and then smiles at me all indulgent and 'isnt he a scrap?'

Sometimes I take the kids to Waitrose just to show them how not to behave ( I dont really but It would be a good idea)

I meant wooden obviously.

Nothing to do with class and very much to do with personality types.

Sometimes I think these parents have read a book on 'parenting' and pick the bits that are easy.....praise for breathing, praise for saying sorry of they've just hammered someone (I don't get it, why say well done for saying sorry?), self esteem builders and over praise. Lazy can't abide a fuss and so heading off the tantrum by giving the child their own way.

When it gets to school it's no better....I recently told my dcs' after school French teacher that she could tell me if they were ever rude, disruptive etc, she replied that she wishes other parents were like but my children were delightful and behaved very well (no shit!!). She recently told one parent that their child did nothing and wouldn't do as he was told, they removed him from the class as she clearly couldn't teach.

It's not luck. I have five children, those past toddler hood are well mannered and polite.....not all academic, dc1 is below average. I have quiet, confident, intelligent, high energy and complete stubborn(toddler). All say please and thank you and understand that they are part of society that within reason they fit into, the world does not bend for them. SN aside all children can be polite, kind and decent/.

Not quite as simple as that SWC

My DS was neglected for 8 weeks and his life was chaotic for about 18mths after that although he was in a loving home.

He has LDs, ASD and other stuff.

He has suffered injury from his early neglect, I have no doubt. But that doesnt mean he is incapable of 'good' behaviour and empathy. Children who are neglected may very well suffer from long term problems but the problems are not necesserly (sp) of the anti social kind.

His brain is damaged but he is a kind and happy boy.

We have to be very careful not to pathologize children who have been in care.

(sorry not wanting to imply that SN automatically implies not any of those things, but in some instances SN can excuse the absence)

I agree with smallwhitecat about luck having to do something with it. I speak as a mother of two children, being brought up the same and where one has easily understood where the lines lie where the other is having a lot more fight in her. We'll get there, but I am no under illusions that it is all down to how well or badly I parent.

The rest of the stuff about class is prejudice and reverse snobbery, I am quite astounded!

How can it be prejudice? Most of us here are mc.

Personality traits? Saying please and thank you. [shakes head in disbelief] It completely depends upon what's important to parents.

My dcs have hit and not wanted to share, but I didn't give them loads of opportunity to be like this, because I took care of their behaviour,.

My DH's goddaughter's parents think that the children she is hauled in for bullying are "ninnies" (the mother's term) and that their DD is an exceptional child and therefore everyone else is a bit jealous of her.

The parents are entitled twats, so I assume they have passed that on to their child through their genes; and since they are entitled twats in their every day behaviour, they have passed on their entitled twattery in their nurturing also. Double whammy.

MAT....fabulous post!!

I don't think of it as 'behaviour' though swc - there is a neurological and explainable reason for autism.

Given no additional needs and plenty of nurture there is little reason for the poor behaviour people are describing on the threads - at least not a biological one.

Well, I hardly dare join this thread as I am an older, working mother, but the OP really struck a chord.

I don't think that dreadful parenting is a class thing, but in each social class the dreadful parenting tends to take on a different form.

There is a kind of entitled, superior mc family which tends to behave as though their children don't have to acknowledge or consider anyone outside their close social group. The parents are the same-would probably like to think of themselves as 'well-bred' (God, I hate that expression) but are actually fairly belligerent to anyone not perceived to be one of them.

It isn't always the behaviour of the children that I object to-all kids have bad phases, and bad days, some kids have behavioural or developmental problems-it's the bored passivity of the parents in the face of it which is so annoying. Mind you, it isn't always uncaring superiority at work, it is quite often, I think, neglect or even not coping disguised as being free and easy.

But generally, one of the hardest things about parenting 'round my way is that it hasn't brought me into a community of parents, as I'd hoped. It has just exposed me to more competitiveness and subtle unkindness than all my single days put together.

Has anyone noticed that these kind of children are very often spoken of by their indulgent parents with sentences like, "Of course, Oliver is a very sensitive child... "

That'll be him over there, will it? The one kicking his father and throwing blocks at the toddler?

Right...

I do think you get weird pockets where all the parents behave in the same way, and doing things differently is seen as very strange... even if 'differently' is in fact the way most of the rest of the country does it.

I was telling DH today about the parents at a toddler group I go to where they all hugely direct/basically make themselves the crafty things that the DC are supposed to be doing. I find it very strange. They probably find me allowing DD to stick the 'eyes' in completely the wrong place also completely bonkers.

It is a hugely MC area, and I haven't noticed much excusing of behaviour, they seem very well behaved actually for the most part, and the parents pick them up on things.

But I have seen it in other places. I have a friend who is a bit prone to it, she just doesn't want to hurt Jrs. feelings which is sweet if not very effective, but now her child is older I think her eyes have opened a little more and she handles them very differently to when we first met.

I have no illusions that DD is a saint, she is a toddler - she is awful sometimes, but she doesn't get away with anything either.

Agree 100% with LeQueen. I'm not sure these things are always learnt 'with ease' either.

There are times I recall losing the will to say don't do x,y,z for the gazillionth time. Or we've left a venue because they were playing up and I did what I said I'd do rather than just issue lame and toothless comments that I see so often from parents.

But it paid off. I'm glad dh and I kept at it because I know dc can go anywhere now and be a pleasure to have around.

Babies are not born with manners; it can be a long haul. I don't think it's smug to be proud of how they've turned out nor was it down to luck.

DBF....Absolutely. Jim's mother also tells asks me all the time "Isn't Jim just gorgeous with his little brother" as she gently removes his hand that leaves a red mark on the 6 week old baby brother's back. And constantly saying 'isn't john the most gorgeous scrummy you've ever seen?' Well NO because I have five of the world's most gorgeous babies and noone compares!! They are called MY CHILDREN!!!!

DogsBestFriend - it less a bike issue more if you ask you are told you can not leave the bikes on site but if you just do it, even if that blocks access to pushchairs via a gate, - its fine and ignored.

The school doesn't encourage bike riding till they are older - but obviously can stop it they try and discourage it with no bike sheds- and it a school thing. parents mainly take the bikes home with them after drop off's and bring them to pick ups.

I do have other issues with bikes and scooters when they are ridden inconsiderately to other people on the paths - particularly young DC or the elderly - as they are never on the very busy roads which I can understand.

I think personality can be nature (ie, DD is a stubborn so and so and so am I) but manners are definately nurture.