to think middle class parents, when shite, are a special sort of shite?

[CrapolaDeVille]

I am middle class, I think, but find the overtly 'darling, sweetie' set of parents particularly painful. Obviously bad/good parenting isn't reserved for any group or set, but I have only noticed middle class parents do the 'push my child first, I couldn't give a crap about fairness' sort of parenting.

EG. Today my 2yr old at a picnic with pre schoolers and their younger siblings. (dc4 was celebrating last day at preschool.) I gave dc5 my phone to flick through a story so I could eat my lunch and could stop running after him. Another child, boy aged 4, called (let's say) Jim wanted the phone. I said no as my dc was looking. He could look too. He tried to snatch making my dc5 upset (in that screamy frustrated 2 yr old way) Jim's mother says "you can share Darling" as Jim is crushing my child who is half his size, she deosn't ask him to get off. Now my dc is crying, she says "share Darling, come on" (I'm not sure who she is talking to) So then awkwardly I have to say "Jim you're crushing dc5", he tries to take the phone. So I put the phone back in my bag...."I want that phone" Jim says. I say "no it's away now". Jim pushes into me and punches me full force with both fists. Mother says FUCK ALL. Not five minutes later she tells him what " a good boy" he is and "so gorgeous" she could eat him Darling sweetie. She's so proud of his behaviour at the picnic,.

EG. DC5 gets scratched on the face with a stick, by a 4 yr old looking straight at me. Mother sort of shrugs and says nothing.

DC5 later on a bit cross and kicks a nearly empty bottle over, sheer naughtiness and devilment, before I can even speak mother of stick weilding child shouts "for goodness sake DC5" then spots me and says sorry. I was so fed up by this point that I just said "to be honest I expect nothing less from X parents" and left, in the knowledge that I'll never see them again.

EG Two little girls tell DC5 to get off trampoline saying 'it's ours get off', DC5 complies. Then I give him his football.....they come over shouting at him to share, but as he's only just got it he wanted to kick it first. I just found myself supporting my son in not sharing, even though I think it's important to share, I'm really cross with myself.

This is my last child. I have spent the last ten years watching my dcs play fair, take turns and be generally kind only to see the other mc brats not only put themselves first but parents whole heartedly endorse and encourage this behaviour.

I do know lots of other nice mc parents, but this type of parent is completely reserved for the middle class slightly older mother.(AGAIN to reiterate this is not all mc parents.)

I suppose with communal toys I've said something along the lines of "I'm sure you can share DD but that means you have to wait until X has finished playing with it and then you can have a go." And then tactifully hold her hands/distract her a little distance away so she doesn't try and wrestle it off them (she is only 2 still and patience is very much a work in progress) Normally she'll have lost interest by then.

I don't do the "oh X, DD wants to play with that, it's her turn now." When X's only just picked it up.

Or there is the - what about this instead < offer random toy/ distraction> to the other DC - followed by a sales pitch if necessary.

If that doesn't work

Then well you'll have to wait - enforced by me hovering and gentle and increasingly less so nos.

nos' at attempts for other DC to take toy to early.

I think that with the kind of middle class parents the op is referring to, the thing is that they will be running companies/countries when they are older, so the parents have to make sure their dc develop a sense of entitlement and a disregard for the feelings of others so that when they grow up they are able to trample over other people without feeling bad about it.

Tricky - so right. The dining halls of Eton ring to the sound of entitlement.

Whereas us low class types try and instil a sense of fair play and group responsibility in our dc, to prepare them for a lifetime of having their lives run by these people, and not rocking the boat

Sharing is over-rated. I don't want to share all my stuff all the time with random adults, even if I like them.

So I wouldn't expect LO to share everything of his all the time with other children.

Taking turns is different, but sharing should be something that is encouraged a bit but not forced.

Different situations call for different amounts of sharing and encouragement to share too.

Playgrounds and playground equipment are a must for taking turns, no excuses.

Toys at playgroup are slightly different, if LO takes a toy from someone else I give it back and tell him he can play with it when they are finished. If they take it from him I would do the same in reverse. If possible encourage playing jointly ("you can both fit in the sandpit...here's another car, you can drive them together...")

Toys at home if friends are visiting, we put special things he doesn't want to share away and only keep out things that can be played with jointly or that turns can be taken with or that he doesn't mind someone else having.

But OP, that mother shouldn't have expected your LO to share your phone with her son, especially if he couldn't sit nicely and watch. You gave it to your child for a reason and if she wanted her son to have the same then she should have given him hers.

PeopleCallMeTricky - I think that is exactly why I am worried.

Why am I bothering to teach the DC rules and decent behaviour - when it looks like all this does is disadvantage them.

This thread reminds me of when I was in waitrose and a mother was doing the 'oh do be careful darling' spiel whilst her small son grabbed bottles of vodka off the shelf to the visible distress of the manager.

Parenting is hard work and some children are definitely 'easier' than others but then one only has to read some of the threads on here where adults care about nobody but themselves to see where some of the entitled behaviour comes from.

I totally agree with whoever said that so much behaviour is learnt through example.

Kungfu - we must live fairly close to each other judging by the Bath references and also the single lane traffic/refusal to reverse encounters we've both experienced.

Good question Penguin

My only consolation is they'll be first against the wall when the revolution comes

(only half-joking)

I ws thinking the other day that most people parent in a vaguely similar way to how they and their friends were bought up. Like, most of us will have been smacked, and that's not common now, but we'll still be hardline about manners etc if we come from social circles where that was important, because the last thing you want is your DC showing you up in front of granny!

So essentially, we were bought up on wait your turn, and say please and thank you and have mostly done well for ourselves.

The kids who behave horribly are always unpopular at school, even if kids go along with them at times, I don't think they have happy futures TBH.

Tricky! You're not meant to take this socialism slightly different social circles stuff seriously. Get a grip, woman! Next thing you'll be wanting to change things. Dear God, where will it end?

Tricky - spot on.

leads? sorry comrades, don't know what came over me

Reading this thread, I feel like I must live in a parallel universe. I live in an uber-middle class area, and I've never encountered the type of parenting described here. Bad behaviour is upbraided and on the whole the kids have good manners and are well-behaved. Some styles of upbraiding I admit to finding a bit wishy-washy, but never are kids allowed to brazenly get away with the kind of behaviour described here.

Freaky-deecky!!!
I have very recently experienced something similar to this.
Got on the train home from work; it?s that time of year when you get lots of day trippers/ tourists.
Anyway get on train knackered, as it happens it?s all men in front of me. They all stand in the walk way, from between their arms I can see an empty 3 seater.

Think that?s odd, wriggle my way through and see that there?s a little girl I?d guess about 4 sat on the middle seat. Mummy sat in the 2 seater opposite. Go to sit down when LO shrieks NO NO NO you can?t sit here NO NO!
I look at Mum expecting at least a don?t be silly/rude and I get a sickly sweet smile from Mum, ?Oh she really wants to sit by herself giggle, you don?t mind do you.

I admit I stood looking gob smacked for about 30seconds, and am proud to report I said yes, yes I do mind. And sat down. Fuck that I?m not standing up for 40 minutes sniffing sweaty men?s armpits just for an over indulged 4 year old.

LO looked shocked as hell that someone would not actually do what she wanted. Mummy looked at me and said ?What, what are you doing?, my little girl wants those seats, you can?t do that?

Yes actually I can, see I just did! Actually I said I am not standing when there are seats free, and got my Kindle out of my bag. LO starts to squeal Mummy Mummy tell her Mummy, and slapped me on the leg. I looked at her, Mummy that is, and said if she does that again I will call ahead to the transport police and report you for unsocial behaviour. They will insist that you either control your child or they will remove you from the train. (I was actually shitting myself; and have no idea if that is true?)

LO was bundled on to Mummy?s knee with lots of don?t mind the mean lady, Mummy will get you X, Y &Z when we get home, you?re such a good girl. And lots more mena lady comments etc. Thank God for Ipods

My victory/comfort was short lived as 2 of the sweaty mean then joined me on the seat, though I?m telling myself that they were being supportive.
But really how up yourself do you have to be to think it ok for your 4 year old to inconvenience so many other people?

Tricky I have often thought that (I have no eye deer what class I am btw) - that maybe I've done ds a disservice by emphasising turn-taking and whatnot.

Several times I've had to talk to him (the scrum for a cake stall, say) and tell him he's allowed to be more assertive. He's getting there. I'm hoping to strike the right balance between gobshite and pushover.

I think there is a definite tendency to this type of parenting among white liberal middle class parents.

It stems from fear I think.
Fear of upsetting your child. Fear of damaging their self esteem. Fear that other parents will find you too stern, too shouty, too working class.

I recall one of Mums at my DC's school holding a party during the Summer to welcome some new children who were starting in year one. It was kid heaven. Bouncy castle, trampoline, water balloons, picnic goodies...you name it. And one little kid moaned the entire time.

Now kids do this don't they? They grizzle sometimes. And we tell them tos top it. But not this Mum.
Apparently he was too hot. Then too cold. Then it was becaus ehe wasd the youngest in the year (er no that would be mine...the ones over there having a ball). Then he was bored (because he's very very clever).

Christ, said I, he's a handful. I know, she beamed back at me.

Smellslikecatpee, I think I love you. That is brilliant!

and why are middle class children singled out?

I want to live where libelulle lives .

gooseberry I think because this particular type of parenting is very middle class centric.

That's not to say that other sorts of annoying parenting isn't more prevalent among other classes.

It stems from fear I think.
Fear of upsetting your child. Fear of damaging their self esteem. Fear that other parents will find you too stern, too shouty, too working class.

Wordfactory, I totally agree with this. I have that fear, but I just cannot stand by and watch my children misbehaving and being rude. I just feel too embarrassed. I think the twin of entitlement is a complete lack of shame.

Right, having lived on a council estate (still do thinking about it - albeit a different, leafier one) and having mixed with many examples of the type the OP discusses; I've decided it's all about the alpha.

The shit parents who let their DCs snatch, grab, push and shove exist in rough areas as much as they do in Nappy Valley (or wherever it is in London these people congregate). And like them, they actively encourage it. They could be each other quite frankly but Fate has decreed that one is born rich, the other poor.

Difference is, the wealthy parents' DCs eventually run the country. The estate kids grow up to run, ummm, the estate.

Running an estate (of the sort I'm talking about, not a country pile) isn't something many people on those estates aspire to. They'd rather their dcs did something other than deal soft drugs, wander round with status dogs and chase the occasional person round the flats' carpark with a baseball bat. The return isn't that great, as anyone (other than the most lumpen of prole) can see.

Running the country however brings many benefits.