to think middle class parents, when shite, are a special sort of shite?

[CrapolaDeVille]

I am middle class, I think, but find the overtly 'darling, sweetie' set of parents particularly painful. Obviously bad/good parenting isn't reserved for any group or set, but I have only noticed middle class parents do the 'push my child first, I couldn't give a crap about fairness' sort of parenting.

EG. Today my 2yr old at a picnic with pre schoolers and their younger siblings. (dc4 was celebrating last day at preschool.) I gave dc5 my phone to flick through a story so I could eat my lunch and could stop running after him. Another child, boy aged 4, called (let's say) Jim wanted the phone. I said no as my dc was looking. He could look too. He tried to snatch making my dc5 upset (in that screamy frustrated 2 yr old way) Jim's mother says "you can share Darling" as Jim is crushing my child who is half his size, she deosn't ask him to get off. Now my dc is crying, she says "share Darling, come on" (I'm not sure who she is talking to) So then awkwardly I have to say "Jim you're crushing dc5", he tries to take the phone. So I put the phone back in my bag...."I want that phone" Jim says. I say "no it's away now". Jim pushes into me and punches me full force with both fists. Mother says FUCK ALL. Not five minutes later she tells him what " a good boy" he is and "so gorgeous" she could eat him Darling sweetie. She's so proud of his behaviour at the picnic,.

EG. DC5 gets scratched on the face with a stick, by a 4 yr old looking straight at me. Mother sort of shrugs and says nothing.

DC5 later on a bit cross and kicks a nearly empty bottle over, sheer naughtiness and devilment, before I can even speak mother of stick weilding child shouts "for goodness sake DC5" then spots me and says sorry. I was so fed up by this point that I just said "to be honest I expect nothing less from X parents" and left, in the knowledge that I'll never see them again.

EG Two little girls tell DC5 to get off trampoline saying 'it's ours get off', DC5 complies. Then I give him his football.....they come over shouting at him to share, but as he's only just got it he wanted to kick it first. I just found myself supporting my son in not sharing, even though I think it's important to share, I'm really cross with myself.

This is my last child. I have spent the last ten years watching my dcs play fair, take turns and be generally kind only to see the other mc brats not only put themselves first but parents whole heartedly endorse and encourage this behaviour.

I do know lots of other nice mc parents, but this type of parent is completely reserved for the middle class slightly older mother.(AGAIN to reiterate this is not all mc parents.)

Well no a hamlet wouldn't have shops. But all the villages here have them - they are as ubiqutous as starbucks in a city. But yummy so I am not complaining :)

I think it's the disparity in expectations of MC/WC parents and the reality that makes this phenomenon so amusing. The general stereotype being MC = naice well behaved folks WC = dog rough and a bit scary. It's just a big jarring when you realise that MC parents produce nasty little shits too. (I say this as a WC person who's been a bit startled by the "Oh Joshyyyyyy" kind of parenting)

I totally agree with whoever said it's not wanting to be thought of as WC and shouty. I well remember the ripples of disapproval washing over a park in Cambridge when dh barked "dd1! Be NICE to dd2!" in firm tones.

I just have a weakness for cheese. It is my downfall :) I do seemed to have missed a law being passed about silly hat and stripy aprons being mandatory for deli staff. Maybe that's why they are so pricey - they are trying to re-coup the cost of the uniforms, bunting and fake straw :)

oh Kirstie Allsop, homemade homes kind of territory...

We are strictly bohemian, in this city bubble; strict rationing of TV in favour of creativity and self expression, Lidl and organic butchers/grocers with home made cakes and rice cakes as snack food.

Children barefoot looking like they've been pulled through hedge backwards. Mum in Maxi dress, sunglasses and three year old tied to her breast.

Sometimes this bubble of right on liberalness is countered by the odd prole shouting, "Conner, ya wee cunt, bring that baw back NOO!" and everyone freezes in horror.

Dp was really shocked when I thanked a bus driver the other day. Its something I've always done as manners were very important to my Mother. She had no money and we lived on a council estate, my childhood was hard but we were brought up to be respectful and courteous(sp), calling adults Mr and Mrs so and so etc and if it ever got back to her that we had been cheeky then we would have been in a lot of trouble.

My dd(6) is very well mannered (please don't think I'm being smug) and I have witnessed her being pushed to the back of queues - not always by other kids either - because she is so quiet and part of me wants her push back.

She works really hard and her manners are often recognised in school and she's won pupil of the week several times and the Head Teacher recently sent me a letter praising her and saying she was a great role model for the school and a credit to us. It makes me really proud of her but I think its a sad time when good manners are not the basic norm.

The attitude and behaviour of some of the Parents I have witnessed in the playground is disgusting so its hardly suprising to me that their little darlings think its ok to hit classmates and teachers. Its not just the middle class either.

Yeah... not all villages are like that. At all!

IME, most have a post office/village shop and a one room pub. There might be some local produce in a wicker basket. That is as bunting as most villages get.

(and everyone thanks the bus driver)

Ours has bunting from the lamposts from end of June to about September (although I think they put it up earlier for the royal wedding this year) Very twee but harmless. Is a larger village though. The smaller vllages nearby are more along the Post Office/Village Shop, Pub, Church model.

Thanks LeQueen (I have had a quick name change from BoffyM, got bored of it), I hope it does stop them thumping DS. I don't know what I am going to say if the teacher speaks to me about it in school, "I don't advocate violence, but I really can't tell him not to hit back any longer because this is becoming more serious for him"?

Gutted I missed sports days whilst working. DH went instead and there were quite a few turned up collar polo shirt middle management Dads there absolutely screaming in support of the school "house" of their DCs. DH really enjoyed earwigging and listening to all the gobshites conversations.

At the risk of outing myself, our DS's school is expanding very shortly, meaning there will be 3 classes in his year instead of one and about 20-22 pupils in each. One of the lovely parents who gives lots of time to school told me that there were several actually complaining to the school because their DC's weren't with the teacher/classmates of their choice.

I am from working class stock (more of a fishwife type myself )and feel very grateful DS will have a low pupil to teacher ratio. The mind boggles.

I don't understand why it has to be about the class, it shouldn't be anyway.
You either know how to discipline or you don't, shoving, pushing, hitting, biting, not tolerable under no circumstances.
They are responsible and irresponsible parents on every corner regardless of class.
We consider ourselves to be "middle class"(whatever that means) but in situation mentioned in OP I would act very sternly and quickly(warning with a look that my DD knows meaning of too well, if that didn't do it, she would be removed to from the group of friends and threatened with being taken home there and then.
I still don't think that it has anything to do with a "class", parents on Continent have notion of class, but rather view the whole situation as good parenting or bad.

LOL@strictloving

you'll be saying next, the Brits are class-obsessed.

Couldn't agree more. I honestly think it's down to good manners being instilled, or not. I'm half German and over there, class isn't really considered a problem. It's just a case of whether one behaves properly or not. Mind you, IME a lot of German teenagers could do with a stupendously huge fucking bollocking, a kick back from the 'let's not be too authoritarian' wave of parenting that followed the 1940s and 1950s. Today's grandparents/parents grew up with fairly lax authority as a result, and it went too far the other way. Getting better now, gradually, I think.

Back to the UK. It's down to manners, not class, I think. As a teacher, I see all spectrums of behaviour and parenting, from all spectrums of class.

Precisely L.M.I.A.T.W, what the class has got to do with it?
You are either in control or not. ( as a parent you should be)
I have witnessed some pretty bad outburst by children of all ages in public places and no I didn't find it strange, what I did find strange was a parental response to those: "OOOOh my little darling don't be so cross, come to mummy for a hug and kiss, you need to share with x and PLEASE calm down"
Parents fully grown adults terrified of their own children, joke right?

Um... strict, I think I agreed with your post, prior to mine. Now, reading your reply, I don't know whether we're disagreeing or not?...
My point is it's not got anything to do with class... (I think yours was too?) I think it's about effective parenting?

Are we at odds or not? Puzzled!

I think you are agreeing. FWIW

L.M.I.A.T.W, we are agreeing definitely, my point is also it's not got anything to do with class.
Yes effective parenting, not giving in, effectively disciplining, and NOT being frightened by doing so that "you will do some kind of irreversible damage to your children"

Oh phew, I'm pleased about that. Because otherwise, I would have had to come over there and annex you... sorry, my German upbringing just WILL out...

(you can imagine, I'm a stickler for the old discipline. But it's still not enough for
my mother. She'd have even sorted Saddam Hussein out, given half a chance!)

Mine is the same ( her old Soviet upbringing)
More seriously, I have 16 year old DS who is 1.91 tall, strong lad trust me if I did not do the discipline "home work" with him, I would have had a delinquent on my hands now.
Instead I have a typical teenager in many respects, but credit to him and us he is respectful, polite, never uses bad language and most importantly very close to us still.
My mother(with old Soviet upbringing one) is convinced he is the way he is because we were tough on him, and very clear from very young age what was acceptable behaviour, I don't know, but I am following the same path with DD age 5, hopefully it will pay on the long run

I don't think it's to do with class either - I come from a WC background, but some would label me as MC now. However, even though my parents were teenagers when they had me, and weren't well off at all, I was always taught about the importance of good manners, treating people in a way that I'd like to be treated and just generally being respectful...
Most of my friends are MC (I do feel uncomfortable using these labels sometimes...), and the majority effectively discipline their children and expect appropriate levels of behaviour from their DC.
The only muppet I have come across is a neighbour of mine who thinks the sun shines out of her DS's arse - he's never in the wrong, and she's shockingly bad at pulling him up on things. He actually threw a stone in my DD's face right in front of us, and she said the most pathetic, unconvincing "DS don't do that" to him - I would have seriously laid into my DD if she would have done that, and she'd have had TV privelages withdrawn for a while. I had the joy of him calling my DD a "fat arse" on the way back from school yesterday - not a flicker of concern, or a reprimand from his mum. DD called him a "fat arse" back ...then said "What is a fat arse?"........I had words when we got back in the house...
She never thought she could have children, and he is the ultimate PFB.....but she is making a monster.........

Yes lovemysleep give her a decade with that child, monster possibly, or worse yet disrespectful, unadjusted and unstable young adult, dangerous.
It is precisely that lax attitude of" I cannot be bothered" will possibly create generations of mixed up people.
Every once in while in churches windows or community clubs you see posters inviting young parents for " Parenting classes", funny no one mentions middle age parents, lax type to apply(some of them so badly need the guidance on "how to bring up children the right way").

i skimmed this thread this morning and was then reminded of in this afternoon. i took dd swimming in the esporta club we belong too. after a while 2 little boys about 5 and 7 got in the pool. mum got straight in the jacuzzi and proceeded to scream at her sons from a distance every time they got too boisterous - which was a lot. op, yanbu ime

Despite the wussy parenting of MC children, it's only non MC children who grow up into the gang culture and start stabbing and shooting people so it can't be all wrong.

Oh, was that a sweeping generalisation I made?

I wonder if there is a breakdown of ASBOs by class?

DragonAlley I can't help but think that is the case of "unfortunate geography".
Again, poor parenting regardless of class status will breed unfortunate future generations mixed up in all sorts, gun, knife, drug crime.
Class alone doesn't give protection against these vices, if seeds sown badly early on, any of us can find ourselves in a bad situation with our children regardless of class.