to think a lot of posters here believe the ONLY reason they are in a well paid is because they worked so much harder than anyone else and good luck and favourable circumstances had NO BEARING AT ALL

[ssd]

GOD there are some amount of smug posters here who seem to believe they are so far above the rest of us lowly workers, they can't stop telling us how hard they have worked, how academic they are etc etc and if you're not, well really you probably claim benefits and expect the system to help you out with your crap paid job

well guess what folks, some of us are in crap paid jobs due to unforeseen life events, not because we spent years at school studying and trying hard so we could earn minimum wage and be lectured to by people who don't have to compromise all their bloody lives

make your own luck? Not always.

I worked my proverbial arse off for an academic job for 7 years. I'm now having to give up since because of my ex- husband's residence demands, I can't continue commuting for 2 hours 5 days a week and see my children, whom he insists attend the same school until they are 16.

I guess I could have struggled on without seeing them but I doubt they'd thank me for that. If I were a total academic 'star', I might get equivalent work in London, but with 2 kids and an ongoing divorce battle, I really would have to be a star to achieve that.

I'm a very clever lady (I can say that now as I'm about to be unemployed) and a very hard worker but it's all going to shit due to unavoidable life circumstances.

I will probably start again at some point, try to do something else, but it will be starting from the bottom again, so unless I write a blockbuster I'll never earn a lot of money.

So to the smug, you're only a divorce away from career ruin- if you happen to have an unusual career and a controlling ex.

What from chaff isn't acceptable as a term, even when dismissed with a 'for want..': far better phrased as 'is a significant contributory factor to finacial success'.

Thing is there are too many value judgements tied up in this. Of course there will always be more people at the bottom at the top: capitalism relies on a pool of people willing to take up low paid work- there can never be enough 'good' jobs otherwise who'd do the necessary basic work? Where would all teh high fliers be if suddently everyone could make £££££ and get an executive role and tehre were no carers for their children or aprents, TAs at their schools, sales people, etc.

I havent called anyone names catgirl (not here anyway) but i've been with SSD on so many of the nsty threads over the years, and believe me after a while they take theer toll. One thread finishes and another one begins.

Beca- parents in a similarish postion: Dad lost his pension and has to work even into his seventies (random thing really, company bought out by a nation permitted to asset strip the pension plan). Mum used to be really successful but never went abck after I was born- part through MH (I am both the oldest and the fifth baby IYSWIM)- incredibly difficult journey for her, but also we now know she ahs female type AS, something that did not exist in her day and whilst was fine in her previous role as PA, seemed to hold her back later on.

x post tether

I was trying to say that not everyone measures success in monetary terms.

(at last my name is readable)
tethersend - i agree with you to an extent but both can be successful. i dont see lots of life as a zero sum game.
wordfactory - i dont think people use the right scale for luck. unlucky is being born a woman in Afghanistan or a baby now in East Africa. once you realise you are lucky to be here and now, the difference between your luck and someone elses (in the developed world) look much smaller.

peachy as an aside can I advise you not to dismiss a move to India out of hand. It is true that schools there are not geared towards SN in a singnificant way, however, help in any form is cheap, plentiful and willing.

Could you HE your son in the mornings and perhaps enlist some help to do other things with him inthe afternoons, freeing you to work?
Also you could easily afford help with all domestic matters which will seriously increase your free time.

I think you might be a child psychologist, is that right? If so, all the nternational schools etc are crying out for them and Britih ones are incredibly well thought of (a piece of luck you could use to your advantage?)

I'm not making a judgement on that tether, just saying, In fact, it's a good job not everyone does want it.

Beccaroo, most people who have financial success also have success in other areas. They usually have stimulating and interesting careers, high self esteem and are successful in their careers. If you think it is simply about money you are way off the mark.

Curious. Is marriage a career? Or is that a different thread?

Ah, I see, sorry.

For the purposes of my argument I am using 'success' to mean financial success.

"Of course there will always be more people at the bottom at the top: capitalism relies on a pool of people willing to take up low paid work- there can never be enough 'good' jobs otherwise who'd do the necessary basic work? Where would all teh high fliers be if suddently everyone could make £££££ and get an executive role and tehre were no carers for their children or aprents, TAs at their schools, sales people, etc."

Well exactly, Peachy. Which is the glaring fault in any notion put forward that success is a result of some sort of formula which can be replicated.

"I'm not making a judgement on that tether, just saying, In fact, it's a good job not everyone does want it."

I know you're not making a judgement on it, Retro- which is why I am asking you to.

catgirl, who is that to?

Hmmm. Perhaps.

They probably also routinely work 80 hours per week, see very little of their family and have high blood pressure!!!!!

If its what you want, fine. Its just not what everyone wants. And some people, no matter how hard they work, just never seem to catch a break....maybe they dont live in the right "area" or know the right people or have the self esteem to move up the career ladder, who knows?

Regarding taking risks some people simply can't because don't have even £1 spare to start a business and because if they fail they will have no family to help them, not even to put them on the lounge floor. That makes huge difference. And you cant take silly risks if you have dcs to feed and no back up at all. Most people who do have some kind of back up.

Having family around-even a poor one- is very important. Also the location where your family is. If they live in london or other city you can take more chances than someone with family in a small village in the middle of nowhere. If you can use someone's car or pc, if you can have free childcare, if your uncle is accountant etc etc. Plus 'working hard'.

It was the divorce away from a career change comment, but I had mis-read the post. Altough I get the impression that yourself and LeQueen do not have careers but are married to men who do and are commenting on what contributed to their sucesses and have not had independent financial or career sucess yourselves (or have given this up to raise families). Is that correct or have I mis-read? No judgement implied btw just interested in your perspective

tether I accept that there are not an infinite number of well paid careers, but is it really just a lottery as to who gets them?

I just don't believe that. It seems too convenient a theory. One that stops us giving things a go because... what's the point.

Of course hard work alone won't cut it, but it will take you some way. And with tenacity, a thick skin and sheer bloody mindedness you can a lot.

But there is an element isn't there of sacrifice. One thing I have noticed (and honestly not in a judgey way)is that often people cannot wait for things... cannot save for things and are not willing to put up with something second best. A lot of it is about those choices even when dealt with a shitty hand (which I have been with a horrible horrible ex) - For instance, I could have chosen to have gone bankrupt when he left me (it would certainly have been a lot fucking easier) but I chose to battle on - I chose to pay off his debts, which I am still paying the very last off now over 6 years later. Knowing I have enough cash in the bank to cope with stuff is so reassuring as having been on the other end of that was terrifying. So not measuring success just in monetary terms per se but it brings my family so much security.

I will not ever give up. I have to make hard choices all the time about my children and their needs and try to balance things. I do agree that leaving it to luck just disenfranchises people and makes them think without a break they cannot do anything with their lives - you can change things.

I do think that the most important gift my parents gave me was a massive work ethic - no matter how educated I am I am never ever above doing a crappy job if I need to - I do moan about it to myself of course - but i will always get on with it and will not back down and resign myself to the easier option.

We all reach crossroads in our lives with ill children, relationship breakdowns, death etc but it is how you face them that is important. Every time I have wanted to run away I have faced it head on and as I get older I realise that these were the crucial points in my life and dealing with these disasters have now been the things that have made me successful. I am not a strong person, it is more about being too scared to back down and be overwhelmed and fail.

WF- ASD specialist (support bot medical- first degree world religions though so some links there too!). I have a friend working in the field in Goa so will ask for his email from uni if it happens.

We'd prefer to not go as we'd not get back their wonderful school placements on our return and it's a 3 year placement with a Bollywood studio (I know I know LOL...) but it's nice to ahve reserve plans if DH's business should stumble, as so many do at the moment.

Not dismissed, by any means.

A divorce away from a change isn;t universal: possible however a car accident away is. Same concept with better generalisation perhaps?

I too, think that luck has played a very very minor part in my success.
And even less part in my dh's . He comes from a very poor background. And earns a better wage than I do now. when I look at him, and his skills, he deserves his salary. And he deserves it be doubled and trebled, quite frankly !
And when I say success, my success, I do not have a huge salary or anyhting. But its is fine, as it is.
I got here through shere hard work, determination and a few other reasons. But luck I feel plays a very small part.
No uni fees admittedly. But then , lower cost uni fees were also an option to all my peers, at the time. If they chose not to go, or were not able to go, then I can not be held responsible for that. But then I CHOSE not to take a student loan, whilst all around me did. Instead I continued to work 3 jobs, as I had done since aged 15.
Maybe someone could point out to me, where the 'luck' part comes into my career, because I just can't see it.
I nearly always get offered the job at interview. thats because I chose my jobs very carefully, to apply for, and know I can do it. where's the 'luck' ?

pinkytheshrinky i like what you say about "Every time I have wanted to run away I have faced it head on". if i look at my social group, we all have different goals in life, but the ones who let themselves run away are the ones who are least sucessful (by their own measure of success)

I think one of the great things about forums like MN is that whatever hole you think you might be in, someone here might have a good suggestion, or offer of help...if you're just willing to ask and reach out, somone will be along with sound advice and encouragement.

Perhaps Oblomov it is best phrased not as luck but absence of really bad luck?

You clearly earned where you are but if your child had been severely disabled or you had become ill at univeristy things may have been different.

'Luck' can be countermanded with graft; bad luck sometimes just is. Doesn't matter how many qualification or experiences I have, just at the minute no chidlcare will touch the boys so here I am.

Of course in my hope that things will improve the graft is hopefully going to pay back one day. The spoils of graft can sometimes be saved (I hope) but there are obstacles that can get in people's way/ I mean as an extreme no amount of ahrd work will stop ds3's ASD and enable him to work will it? And that's just abd luck.

LeQ of course that's true of some people: achievement MUST be measured by the capabilities of the individual. But for a significant number it is not. You get people like my Dad who would have been quite capable of a degree (I suspect maths) but was not allowed to attend Grammar; or the very many girls who just seem to have a life plan of shit job - marry - babies- more shit jobs - die. They are capable of much but nobody even suggested to them there was anything else out there. Some of the women I used to work with had amazing talents but in their worlds nobody did anything. There was no concepts either of what they could have: holidays, travel, whatever motivates someone- it was odd: a cultural glass ceiling of sorts.

Im not really sure what the point of your post is but you sound really pissed off with your situation.

I have never looked down at anyone for the job they do or if they are required to claim benefits.

Am I lucky? I would rather say fortunate. The reason I feel fortunate is because I am in a position to make choices, for example will I work or be a SAHM , will I send my DS to a private school etc.

I am fortunate because I am in a very sound financial position. I am in this position because when i was younger I held down a full time job and studied for a masters at the same time so that I could progress throught my choosen career.

My husband earns a six figure sum but my god he works hard for it.

So no I am not looking down my nose at you or being smug, I am stating facts with regards to my situation. None of this however is waht I measure my"success" on, I love my husband and I have a fab wee DS.......that is what makes me proud.

Peachy, I was very ill at Uni. How about a Coma, in a Russian Mental hospital, chained to the bed by both wrists and both ankles. Was the only hospital available. But I still got my BA in the end.
But yes, I could have been born disabled. true.