to think a lot of posters here believe the ONLY reason they are in a well paid is because they worked so much harder than anyone else and good luck and favourable circumstances had NO BEARING AT ALL

[ssd]

GOD there are some amount of smug posters here who seem to believe they are so far above the rest of us lowly workers, they can't stop telling us how hard they have worked, how academic they are etc etc and if you're not, well really you probably claim benefits and expect the system to help you out with your crap paid job

well guess what folks, some of us are in crap paid jobs due to unforeseen life events, not because we spent years at school studying and trying hard so we could earn minimum wage and be lectured to by people who don't have to compromise all their bloody lives

[proudfoot]

Also if you are a lecturer and if you have anything to do with open days I hope you do try to encourage prospective students from lower income families and inform them of all the financial help they ARE entitled to. What a real shame if the attitude you are showing here comes across and puts off able students because they think they can't afford it when they absolutely can - even in this current harsh world ;)

[allegrageller]

I'm saying that entirely because I've worked with students for 7 years now (I was the careers advisor in my previous post) and have clearly seen students on low incomes suffering. The current economic climate for graduates is simply shocking. The proper downturn started in 2008/9, presumably after you graduated? I am seeing very talented law students, for instance, return to us asking for part-time teaching because they have been laid off by solicitor's firms within 1-2 years of being taken on.

I presume you know that the post-2012 intake will probably take a few decades longer than you to clear debt? (Unless you really managed to clock up a fortune). If you think that will not put off those who can expect no help from family at all post-graduation, or will be earning wages at the lower graduate end (but over £21k), I think you are being idealistic. 'A mental barrier due to rubbish people spout'- like who, the entire UK academic sector who are calling the £9k plan completely bonkers? And not merely because of Willetts' naive assumption that the universities would arrange themselves neatly into a perfect market. You cannot charge £9k and expect those who already feel financially insecure not to be the most affected.

Are you not basically saying that it's all been relatively easy for you, therefore any future graduates who face troubles presumably do so because they are not as wise and talented as you are? Forgive me if I have you wrong. The internet is a blunt instrument after all.

[allegrageller]

well of course I bloody do, proudfoot. What a thing to say.

The campus I worked on was based in a low-income area and is now being CLOSED entirely because of the £9k fee issue. 'Widening participation' is a bit of a joke when universities try to rearrange themselves into 'premium brands' I was admissions tutor and broke my back trying to engage students from lower-income areas with the university. So please do not lecture me on 'inclusiveness'.

[allegrageller]

and by the way (duh) at open days and interviews, we are all concerned to engage students with the course. That's what we are there for. We are not there to discuss the appalling political situation and economic climate with them. Or, indeed, their finances. The registry does that.

Incidentally I don't know a single academic from ANY institution or subject who doesn't think that the situation for students has worsened significantly since the £9k fees were introduced. And it is fairly common knowledge that graduates post-banking crisis face unprecedented challenges. Youth unemployment is the highest it has ever been, remember?

[proudfoot]

I graduated in 2008.

Re: law students being "laid off", I'm not sure what you mean. You can't be laid off within 1-2 years of being taken on unless you have done something very seriously wrong, as the training contract is a fixed 2 year period. Do you mean they haven't been kept on at NQ level or they have been made redundant at 1 or 2 years PQE? If the former that is quite tough as the NQ market is pretty saturated, but it really is a minority who are let go at this stage and if they are good they will find a role before too long. If you mean 1 or 2 PQE lawyers, there are plenty of options for them and if they have been made redundant they at least get some kind of redudancy package...

If grads are earning just over 21k, the repayments will be so small that they will barely even be noticeable. If earning 22k, a repayment of 9% of the 1k over the threshold, i.e. 90 quid a year, is nothing. If they earn 25k, they will be paying back 390 a year. I honestly don't believe that grads would need parental help with that.

Are you not basically saying that it's all been relatively easy for you, therefore any future graduates who face troubles presumably do so because they are not as wise and talented as you are?

No, not at all. I did not require any wisdom to manage my student finances. I just needed to realise that I wouldn't be able to afford anything fancy until I got a decent graduate job and that I would have to do some part-time work in term time and work throughout the holidays. Those who are entitled to full maintenance grants may even be able to get by without any or much part-time work in term time.

I don't think the figure of 9k is ideal but IMO that is a separate issue to the question of finance while AT university. The situation with regard to that has improved and means students will be better off. Most of the academics I know agree with me on that and they do have to talk about this stuff at open days (even though they should be talking about the course) because there is so much confusion and people don't understand it.

[ThumbsNoseAtSnapewitch]

Gonig back to tether's point about some people getting the luck and some not when they have the same background (ok, heavily paraphrased and I hope what she actually meant) - I think that character and personality play a big part too. Not just your own either - but those of the people employing you.

You can have exactly the same qualifications, have worked just as hard as someone else, overcome the same hardships - but at the end of the day, the interviewer for your star job is going to pick the person they like better - and if that's you, then there is the luck element. You had the luck of fitting better into the "structure" of the company/business. And it doesn't mean that you are nicer, kinder or anything like that - just that YOUR personality fits better than the other, equally qualified and hard-working, candidate.

And there is really nothing you can do about that - you can't pick your interviewers, you can't know ahead of time what the other candidates are going to be like, you can't know exactly what the workforce environment is like - so it's luck whether you fit it better than the others.

Once you're there of course, it's up to hard work etc. to make sure you stay there and advance - but only when the company remains stable and the economy remains active - external factors there also can create massive change.

I used to work for a lady whose DH had his own distribution business. It was going very well, nice turnover - and then the 9/11 disaster happened, causing markets to go haywire, banks tightened up and started calling in loans etc. - this caused him to go bankrupt, which then adversely affected all the comapnies to whom he owed money for their goods - it was a shit situation and he wasn't the only one in it by any stretch of the imagination - but all the hard work in the world couldn't haul him out of that situation. He has since turned things around BECAUSE he works hard - but he couldn't save that company.

[proudfoot]

You can have exactly the same qualifications, have worked just as hard as someone else, overcome the same hardships - but at the end of the day, the interviewer for your star job is going to pick the person they like better - and if that's you, then there is the luck element. You had the luck of fitting better into the "structure" of the company/business. And it doesn't mean that you are nicer, kinder or anything like that - just that YOUR personality fits better than the other, equally qualified and hard-working, candidate.

This is true. However, most jobs are not just one offs and the way to overcome this luck element is to put in enough applications. If you're invited to interview, chances are you're "good enough" so you will also be invited to interview for other similar roles and will eventually be hired. If not, then you might start asking questions about whether it's just bad luck or if it could be down to interview technique. (I'm looking at this from a graduate scheme perspective and I accept that higher up the chain there will be fewer openings available at the same time)

[Peachy]

I ws born 1973 (graduated 2008 though- does that out me in a rare place? no thoyght nt LOL)

My rroom ws crinoline ladies then jungle for my sister's nursery which I managed to inheir (yuck) until I went on a school trip to Poole in 1984 and came back to one where the opposite walls were red with white hearts (and curtains matched), and the other walls in a bright geo floral design; I bloody loved it!

I am presuming BTW that a fari few legal bods lost work when the IAS went into administration yesterday? Poor sods.

I know within my own sector it is harder now than I have ever experienced; charities are struggling and the equivalent public service is also. So people with skills that are needed and technically in short suppy (like my MA ASD) are still finding it ahrd to get work. I also know from watching DH's crows at university that I am glad I did my degree even a few years back; many of my cohort might still be in their university jobs looking for a break but at least they ahve that- so many of DH's can;t even get work (becuase of that bottleneck jam) to supplement their student incomes (his city has 3 universities which probably does not help!) and my Tutor tells me that far more students are dropping ut now than ever for financial reasons. They used to get many jobs through the university jobshop but even that is now pretty inactive.

SH's field was also supposed to be a shortgae and that's had amssive cuts becuase it's non essential expenditure for many. He's lucky to have had some self employed work on the simmer for a while. I suspect many of his friends will regret their degree which is a shame becuase I do value study for it's own sake, even if that's not a very practical outlook. Probably reflects my background (estates girl,me).