to think a lot of posters here believe the ONLY reason they are in a well paid is because they worked so much harder than anyone else and good luck and favourable circumstances had NO BEARING AT ALL

[ssd]

GOD there are some amount of smug posters here who seem to believe they are so far above the rest of us lowly workers, they can't stop telling us how hard they have worked, how academic they are etc etc and if you're not, well really you probably claim benefits and expect the system to help you out with your crap paid job

well guess what folks, some of us are in crap paid jobs due to unforeseen life events, not because we spent years at school studying and trying hard so we could earn minimum wage and be lectured to by people who don't have to compromise all their bloody lives

Dh works 7 - 11 most days including study: does that count as workaholic? I am never sure; if work comes in he does it, that simple. Dad used to do 20 day runs of 16 hour shifts as well; comapred to the other dads he was really successful (factory manager) but never rich. Lots of reasons for that, many upbringing related.

Peachy - i think for many people it is not so much a feeling of entitlement but crickey that looks scarey but someone's going to get that job/set up that sucessful business so i might as well give it a shot and see if that person can be me

My (single) mum worked 2 jobs to keep us fed and clothed, worked insane hours and was never rewarded with a 6 figure salary.

It is possible to work incredibly hard and not be highly paid, not all those who've ended up wit

My brother works for a charity, works way longer hours than myself and yet earns a quarter of what I do; he's no less competent or hard working than me, he's just chosen a less well renumerated career.

Perhaps Tere, and I don;t mean entitlement in terms of I deserve that more than anyone

More- I have worked ahrd and can do that so why not me?

See if I can explain better.

OK so BIL had a third from a Poly and is doing really well; he says himself that it's becuase he had a great education and feels he can walk into a room, and look as if he is the eprson they need right now, he fits.

Whereas I am far better qualified yet walk into a room, panic and want to hide. I don't feel I belong anywhere other than in the post room.

It's not good / bad or a judgement call: s he states himself, he simply was lucky enough to be taught a certain confidence and flair that I may wel, ahve had once (I certainly ahd some good jobs before) but if so I lost it when my confidence got on his bike (which is about after two years of being a carer).

Yeah, we do know that Chen.

Conversely, you certainly aren't going to earn big dosh NOT working hard.
No one is saying work hard= big money. What they ARE saying is don't work hard = not big money.

It's not just about long hours and hard work though, as has been discussed. It's also about chance and luck and being in the right place at the right time in the right field and taking risks.

Its totally insulting to say to someone "oh you got where you are down to luck"

Yes luck plays a part - but hard work, risk taking, making sacrifices and making the right choices are also in there and shouldn't just be dismissed as "smugness"

Personally it's up to you, but I think you can never get those hours back and I'd rather have DH around more than earn a massive salary just so we can buy more stuff. Just as today, I could walk into a job earning £150k in the city, but I won't, as neither DH nor I want the kids raised by a full-time nanny, and DH doesn't want to be a house husband. I consider myself very very fortunate indeed to be able to even consider those choices.

Also people choose to do jobs which are very important and they enjoy them and work very hard but will never have the sort of remuneration that other jobs do. And some people work very hard and don't enjoy their job and don't get paid very much either.

At some point the higher earners have chosen making money over other priorities. That's fine, that's your choice, I'm not saying that makes you a terrible person but also please realise it doesn't make you superior to other human beings either.

Another thing to point out is that being born in the UK and not, say a drought ridden corner of Africa is a massive trump card even before you discuss any other advantages.

DH is like your BIL, Peachy.

Insomnia, I'm really impressed you could just walk into a £150k job! wow! Just like that, eh?

And the " stuff" we buy tends to be property, land, private education, travel, experiences.

We are strangers to designer garb and flashy telly's.

Also, there's a voive telling me if I gave it a shot i'd be crap and let a lot of people down.

I am not scared; it's not that, i've done enough in my life to know that about myself- charity management, fundraising management, going to do a degree at 32 and an MA after- it's something else. A voice that styarted telling me I wasn;t good enough or deserving, and I can remember that being in place at Comp. At one stage I drowned it out but after a few falls that WERE due to bad luck, I don't think I have the same defences against it any more. Does that make sense? Everyone I know in RL seems to think me capable of far more than I do myself. And because the biggest hurdles so far have been ones I can't do much about- my children's disability- the confidence has floundered even further. Apart from uni which is part time and very solitary, there isn't really any avenue in which I can achieve and get a sense of what I can do any more.

Plenty of smug on here now ,OP

I think they have proved your point for you

catghirl it is

But where I think SSD is coming from as OP is the people who say you got where you are becuase you didn;t work hard

Quite often the people on MN who get that thrown at them are the oens who work hard in demanding but low paid work, or are carers / disabled themselves.

In terms of life philosophy of ourse hard work is a major factor; but youc an work your arse off as a cleaner and not get anywhere, or you can work your arse off caring for someone. On MN though it's used as an insult and a way to lay blame at people who have been less lucky.

Nobody has always been lucky- every life is a trade off- but some really ahve taken more or more severe blows than other people. Some things are insurmountable.

Smuggest post surely is the , " Bully for you, I could earn that sort of money but I think having DH around is soooooo much more important!" ?

Smacks of, " I could never work and have someone else raise my kids" or, " Oh, I have to work, my brain goes to mush". Or my particular favourite, " Oh gosh, I'd far rather play with Tabithatallulah than clean any day!"

You can work your arse off as a cleaner and set up your own cleaning business and make serious money. Plenty do, why not you? ( but then I have no sense of failure, at all.)

Why do we have to focus on the smuggest posts at either end of the spectrum?

I learned lots from MN over the years- little things such as I could study, do ahve things to offer; almost every thread of this type has things for both sides to elarn about other people's lives and how society works but instead people only read the extreme posts and it turns into a bunfight.

yes getting rich usually invovles a slog.

yes bad luck can really upset someone's life and overturn whatever they have managed so far.

I don't see why it is smug to admit you are very lucky to be able to make certain choices. It would be smug to not acknowledge that and think you are brilliant and condemn others for their choices, like many with right wing "I'm all right Jack" views do.

Was that aimed at peachy, retro?

I hope not.

Peachy - i think you should consider:

1. is there anything you can do to look after your wellbeing? more exercise, more water, more fresh air, review your diet etc.
2. deciding to give yourself a chance. perhaps an experiment: today i am going to experiment being confident. try it on an unimportant day and start before you leave the house. if i were a confident version of me, how would i dress, do my hair/makeup? engage with the person in the coffee shop?
3. smile at people. your BIL is thinking about them not himself. make them feel good.
4. remember everyone is afraid of things. people think i am v v v v tough but i have atleast 2 jobs to do this week i would run a mile from if i could (possible public humiliation awaits me - eeeek!) but i cannot, so all there is to do is make the best of it.
5. expect to make mistakes, fumble your words, say the wrong thing etc. everyone does.
6. do apply for those jobs you think are not for you. please do this one if nothing else. and if it does not initially work, keep applying anyway.

Retro because I am currently a carer for 2 severely disabled kids and have no childcare so without asking Dh to refuse work and do childcare (he is pretty much on call all day) I am stuck at home. I am trying to establish a business in fact, which is where the MA comes in and once my youngest is at school I hope that will take off. I had hoped for it this eyar as he starts nursery but unfortunately he has been shuttled into the referral circuit himself and it's amazing how much time that eats up in appointments etc.

I don't see myself as doing nothing though; whatever has happened I have always kept studying and working towards a day when I not housebound so much. There's a form of optimism in that I think. DH is currently looking at a job possibility in India but the only ting holding us back is the fact that DS3 would not receive any education (he is autistic) there, I have a friend practising in India within the field and it's not positive. I'd still be at home HE'ing which is frankly a big jump to nowhere. We shall see. Other opportunities are slowly presenting themselves as dh gets within a year of finally qualifying.

No, not at Peachy. I have sympathy with Peachy. It was a general " you"

Orm Retro probably does not know my situation, it's fine.

Ther thank you. I am working on it- we have a plan of action and I honestly can't see us being low income for much longer. I do things when I can- used to be a Guider, PTA secretary etc- but Dh doesn;t have a schedule I can know more than about 3 days in advance; uni this year was a joke, mostly self study as he was never here on time or his lecturers would just change the days suddenly.

The plan is set up a business doing support for parents with autistic kids as they try to make changes or cope (MA is in autism, worked for aprenting charity before)- so if for example they are trying to set a new sleep apttern or deal with hard eating issues, they can call me or book a set of calls for me to support them- say if the issue is sleep I can ring at 9.30 am every day to ofer support and see how theya re, try and motivate them forn the next day etc.

I have registered the business name and already pay NI on it but whilst DS4 is here in the mornings I am struggling becuase of the basic lack of quiet for chatting to people etc (no local family to help). plan is to develop a website this year and then launch when school starts. I ahve to be ehre for the school taxi for two different special schools each morning and afternoon but hopefully I can work around that.

The biggest hurdle ATM is simply waiting for DH to get enough time to do my website! The run up to holidays is a big time for him (he reatils lighting for theatres, discos, holiday camps etc from home via the internet)

This discussion has been somewhat simplified into work vs luck- I think both are minimal factors in monetary success TBH.

The way any capitalist society is constructed means that there is space for fewer at the top than the bottom. Yes, people work hard/don't work hard, have good health/get ill start with something/nothing and are clever/not the sharpest tool in the box; but more than that, it is a lottery as to who gets one of the spaces at the top.

This has no bearing on how hard anybody works or doesn't work.

MIL did the cleaning business btw.

My advice to anyone doing that: get a driving lience because if your elder son works nights and you are waking him up every hour in the day for lifts, he WILL eventually leave home ;)

Hear hear, tethersend. And it seems those at the top have moved much further away those at the bottom in recent years, creating a much more unequal society.