Why do people with so many problems still go on to have so many kids?

[sundayrose10]

Often there is a thread on here regarding severe hardship on relationship, crowded unfit home, NO money, kids playing up...and the op will mention she is pregnant with the 3rd, 4th, 5th and so on.

Having more kids on top of major problems = hell

There may not be a right time to have children but there is definitely a better time. And if there is no better time, accept that you don't have to have more kids and be happy with the ones you have. Life is unfair but it's especially unfair to bring more kids into very complicated set ups.

It's a trend I see even in real life. Madness.

contraceptive failure is a myth, IMO.

Of course contraceptives fail occasionally, but most contraceptives are 99% effective, those stats do not tally with the number of women who claim to get pregnant as a result of "contraceptive failure."

Plenty of women manage to not get pregnant while using contraception, it seems very convenient that the ones whose contraceptives "fail" also happen to be the ones whose lives resemble a carcrash.

I also think that the term "poverty" is extremely subjective. The problem is that the goalposts are constantly being moved in order to categorise people as living in poverty when actually, they're not. Currently the benchmark for poverty includes not having access to the internet, for example. That's not poverty, it might mean you're not well off but it's not poverty, but it would be considered such if you're part of a survey. The actual amount of people living in poverty in this country is extremely small (not categorising the homeless in that), in a country where everyone has access to benefits and financial assistance from the state the term poverty is a bit of an insult when compared to other countries...

wannaBe, can you please clarify why you don't count homeless people as poor?

I do count them as poor. But the homeless are in a league of their own, and are poor in their own right, compared to anyone else who has access to food and shelter and has a home... iyswim.

When I say there are very few people living in poverty in this country I am referring to people who have a home/food/access to financial assistance from the state.

Many contraceptives are only 98% effective wannabe, even if used perfectly. For a woman who will be using them for 25 years then that gives her a 50% chance of experiencing a contraceptive failure (roughly, the maths is actually more complex, but it's still a massive risk over your lifetime). That's why I think that people who are in a situation where another child would be a disaster should ask themselves "If I/we conceive would we be happy to have an abortion?" and if the answer is no then they should double up. And doctors should advise accordingly rather than just saying "Oh, you're using condoms, I can tick the box marked contraception".

I do feed them myself retro ! Don't be so sanctimonious. I have been very candid about my situation but that does not give you the right to imply that i am raising children in dire circumstaces because I have a large family and happen to claim CTC.

Thanks for replying, wannaBe. Iswym but, if we say the poor aren't "poor enough" and stop giving them the breadline help, we'll then end up with even more homeless. When you see what happens in countries without a safety net, you stop worrying about whether people are getting 'too much' on benefits. Mind you, there will always be those who just consider homeless families a blot on the scenery.

Btw, internet access was included as a 'necessity' because lack of access is fast becoming an exclusion marker. It's a nightmare trying to get things done with no internet at all - you can't even find the numbers for local businesses, and kids are expected to look things up for their project work.

itisnearlysummer. Totally agree I work in this filed and I have to say the majority of mums have 3-14 children already in care or have been adopted out even amazes that they end up pregnant during the cp hearing for their other children sad
Y. This goose hand in hand with chaotic lifestyle and usually the children by different fathers we even had situation were the mother is not even clear what race the child will be.

InsomniaQueen having money dose not make you a better parent but is dose make you less likely to have loads of children the facts support the highly educated a woman is the less children.

The only way I can see benefit claimants being relevant here is if parents are claiming benefits already and choose to have more children, despite not being able to support the ones they already have themselves.

That neither applies to all benefits claimants, nor means that all parents who claim benefits should be daemonised.

But there really is no denying that amongst irresponsible parenting, there are certainly those who are financially irresponsible and some of those are going to be claiming benefits.

I agree with tidy dancer in this post, it is hugely irresponsible of a couple to increase the size of thier family etc, if they are already reliant on benefits to live. We made the decision to have 3 children, my husband then had a vasectomy, yet he is funding those on long term sick, reliant on Benefits to have as many children as they want! Is it fair? We most defiantly cannot afford to have 4th child. To those who complain their house is too small, they should of thought of that a bit earlier!

Agreed I makes me a little sick when people main about how cramped they are wiles pregnant with their 7 th child the councils can't keep simply re housing people everyone they have a child.

When I see some of the mothers I work with I just feel very sad for them usually on their own and trying to complete a impossible task and everything their children come out of care their pregnant yet again

I spent several years living in a deprived area. I made many friends there, including several of the 'feckless poor' (as they would no doubt be described on here) who had far too many children.

Not one - not a single one - ever had children because they could get more benefit money. Benefits made a difference in that it made a bad situation seem bearable, that's all.

Of the women who 'kept' having children in what were (to me) obviously dysfunctional relationships, two themes kept jumping out again and again: (1) the man's refusal to wear a condom or to otherwise take any responsibility for contraception, and (2) a belief that somehow having a baby would patch up the problems in a relationship.

In DV relationships, quite often the woman was coerced (IMO) in to having more children. Given that DV happens to 1 in 4 women, that might explain quite a few of these 'feckless families'. Whoever mentioned Baby P earlier (because all families who have lots of children are like this of course ) should know that DV was a feature of that relationship too, as it is in 75% of families where child abuse is occurring.

I guess it depends on whether you want to enable people to increase personal responsibility or whether you believe in punishing them for their lack of it. I choose the former. I want to see schools start teaching about healthy relationships and what it's really like to have a baby, and I want to see DV treated much more seriously.

Ironically, the sort of people who get outraged at schools teaching about sex education and this sort of thing are quite often the same ones who go on about people lacking personal responsibility. I don't get it. It's like putting someone who's never driven before behind the wheel of a car and then getting angry with them when they fail their test.

that is such a small percentage of people with larger than average families though mapole.

Most people own their own homes and so when another comes along they fit them in as best they can....certainly is the case for me.

Not children in care the vast majority of these children have more than 3 sibling usually in care up and down the uk with the fathers having a several more with different women.

The whole think is mucked up I agree about sex ed but it's not. Teachers job to teach about relationships that comes from see the relationships with in your own family sorry but I makes me made some things cannot be taught in schools children learn life skills by watching their parents no about of a teacher telling you have a baby with a crack head with no job is gonna make any difference if you mum is doing just that

Children live what they Learn

The ex director of Bernados say we have to start be honest a relies some families cannot be fixed

sunshineandbooks great post, totally agree with everything you say. As a society we have a duty to recognise WHY things are going wrong and rather than sitting and being sanctimonious, we need to look at ways that we can break cycles within families. Cycles of DV, abuse, apathy. Nobody can stress how important upbringing is and the way it shapes your outlook. Growing up in a home devoid of love for example, is much more likely to make you crave love. What better than a baby to fill the void? You only have to look at statistics around those leaving care to see how high teen pregnancy, benefit living, homelessness, drug addiction is. A shattered childhood often leads to a shattered and disfunctional adulthood and that is why we must invest in support for the vulnerable NOT remove it.

Alibabaandthe80nappies - I don't judge people for the number of kids they have, only if they chose to bring more children into an already chaotic situation.

This is exactly what I mean! I myself come from a large family and there are many positives of a large family. I am talking about women in the midst of fleeing abusive relationships but pregnant with the 4th/5th. I am talking about the woman who post that they cannot afford to put food on the table, but are pregnant. Again.

I seriously am not a unkind person who takes pleasure in people's misfortunes. It pains me to see women and children in bad situations. I want women to be empowered. I myself, has made some mad crappy mistakes in my life so I really have no room to put anyone down. But I see it often, even with friends and it's a sad state of affairs.

To see a woman who already has children, who is living a life of pure confusion/so much conflict in her life and has not even reached the stage of trying to work through the problems, AGAIN pregnant is frustrating. It leaves you STUCK in your situation but worse, the children suffer so much. I have seen this with my own eyes.

For the last three days, I have had a 13yr old girl staying with me (my nieces friend) her mother has 8 kids, 6 younger than her. Her mother does not care where she is at. The mother told me on the phone 'I don't care if she wants to come home or not...I have bigger problems than her'. The girl does not want to go home and cries that her step father does things to her. Her mother does not believe her.

It's situations like the above that I talk about. The mother has health problems as well.

I am not talking about benefits etc. I would rather a family claim all they can but the children are living a 'normal' life.

On MN, especially on the relationship section, there is often a post where all the posters gasp at the messed up situation...then the woman will casually say she is pregnant. Again

Another round of applause for sunshineandbooks.

Education can't repair the damage done by dysfunctional parents, but it can mitigate it.

Notpaying - If this thread is in response to mine about moving into 'temporary' council provided accommodation as we were homeless with 3 DCs and I was also pregnant, I will explain how this situation came about.

No this thread is not about your thread. I haven't even read your thread.

Ouch, sundayrose, what a sad & painful story!

The stepfather 'messes with' the 13-year-old ... You don't think he imposes himself on the mother as well, perhaps?

I do partly agree with papermate as we have a similar situation. 10 years down the line i would have loved another child but my DH had had the snip.

I think it is partly due to benefits and social housing but I do feel sorry for the women in some way who have no steady partner and have had children by different men. The benefits are a cushion as the man can walk away. I will get shouted down but I think it does make sense to be married as at least you have some protection by the law.

KidderminsterKate

great...another thread like this, criticising large families, single parents and benefit claimants all in one.......

getting sick and tried of this and think the thread is probably something to do with the one I posted the other day.

I promise you I have not read your thread. It's not a particular thread that stands out...just what I have observed this even in real life. There are plenty of 'stable' families on benefit...it's not all about that. It's more about being in a head fuck/ crap crap crap partner = more babies. People who already have kids and they're not coping but bringing in new life.

I knew this would turn into big family/poor/benefit bashing when I saw the title. Plenty of rich and middle class parents bring kids into dreadful relationships.

well I do see your point then sundayrose

I think people see the baby as the solution to the problems....if you have a shitty life then being pg and having a newborn is somewhat uplifitng. But then that happens to people from all walks of life. Many women have babies in unhappy relationships...the key is whether they can get out from that situation.

totally agree opinionated......look at Diana, Princess of Wales - Harry was conceived in an awful marriage and if reports are to believe Diana as having a bit of a head fuck. Dont see anyone saying they were feckless! Why, probably because they had money/ status.

I live on a council estate and my kids go to an out of catchment area school. I only know one woman on my estate who is on IS with 5 children. The only other big families i know with 4 or more children live on the luxury estate which is the catchment area for my school.

Its a complete myth that you get a bigger council house if you have more kids. Different sex kids are allowed to share a room till they are teenagers now. So if a parent of a girl and boy are living in a 2 bed flat they are not overcrowded until the kids are teens. If they have another baby that can share with the parents.

garlicnutter - Ouch, sundayrose, what a sad & painful story!

The stepfather 'messes with' the 13-year-old ... You don't think he imposes himself on the mother as well, perhap?

I don't know. The girl hasn't said much to me but my niece has told me far more. It's been happening to her since the age of 8. Her mother refuses to speak to her and can hardly handle the younger kids. The mother has a 4 month baby as well. I am trying not to put too much on here.

I don't know how it works but apparently the school knows, and it's now reached to the point of a court case. What I don't understand is that the SF is still in the house. Would he not have been removed?

How can I help this girl that I do not even know? she's so sweet. My niece has told me she has blackouts and a temper where it takes quite a few grown men to hold her down. I'm also worried about that. Selfish as it is, I wont know how to deal with violent anger.

Blimey :( I hope that's not true about her fits - being physically restrained by men would be traumatic for a girl who is being sexually abused.

I don't know why it's still ongoing, unless maybe she's refused to make a complaint and SS are bringing charges? I really don't know anything about the rules & regs.

Poor kid. I hope she has lots of opportunities to stay in nice, safe homes like yours!