Why do people with so many problems still go on to have so many kids?

[sundayrose10]

Often there is a thread on here regarding severe hardship on relationship, crowded unfit home, NO money, kids playing up...and the op will mention she is pregnant with the 3rd, 4th, 5th and so on.

Having more kids on top of major problems = hell

There may not be a right time to have children but there is definitely a better time. And if there is no better time, accept that you don't have to have more kids and be happy with the ones you have. Life is unfair but it's especially unfair to bring more kids into very complicated set ups.

It's a trend I see even in real life. Madness.

Coralanne, where did anyone suggest on this thread that large families are by default chaotic and problematic? They didn't. Could everyone stop setting up straw man arguments in order to knock them down?

The OP has sod all to do with money. When I see sleb magazines with headlines screaming about Katie Price's latest car crash relationship along with the line "Only a baby can save us now" I reserve the right to judge.

tethersend- you are misunderstanding, my position anyway. Just because a parent has multiple children doesn't mean that they should have. This can be be because of a 'culture' within their own family etc, i explained that in my first post at 9.49.

Those that are saying that contraception would be the top of the list are not looking at it through someone elses eyes.

Not everyone hs had the 'tools' given to them to make good, informed decisions, they are not surrounded by people who have the familys best interests at heart, in some cases, they love to create someone to judge, to make them feel better, the 'scapegoat' of the family, or group of friends.

Sometimes it can take an outside perspective and that can be from the outside af an area, there are areas of the country where bad/neglectful parenting is rife, those young girls have never had it suggested to them that they can achieve in their own right, they don't need to try to 'bag a fella' or create a life to gain self esteem/respect.

The quality of the relationships is never suggested to them as being important, they haven't been shown that anywhere, what a good relationship is, only abusive/emotionally damaging.

We cannot empower people without pointing out that they need to reconsider their choices.

I personally believe that there should be more counselling and MH services available, better education and we should be working on raising self esteem. This isn't just what i see at work but also as i have grown up, i'm now in my fourties and depressingly still see around me.

mild I agree. I can't take the Pill and never before I was in my current stable relationship where a baby wouldn't have been a problem have I ever thrown caution to the wind and not bothered with a condom. I am really, really surprised at the number who do. FFS, it's not difficult!

The OP has everything to do with money:

"Often there is a thread on here regarding severe hardship on relationship, crowded unfit home, NO money, kids playing up...and the op will mention she is pregnant with the 3rd, 4th, 5th and so on."

But the point is that not everyone is equipped to make the "best" decision. It's not reasonable to expect everyone to behave the same way or to make the decision that you would make in a chaotic situation.

And, as Poncey has pointed out there are many reasons for what looks like bad "choices". Sometimes they're not choices.

I haven't lived the kind of chaotic lifestyle being referenced here (thankfully) but that doesn't mean that I can't empathise with those who have/do.

Birds, I'm not disagreeing with the bulk of what you say, just your citing of SS intervention at the point of birth as justification for some sort of intervention before conception.

Just to explain 'the area' bit, i grew up in an area in which DV was common and it has taken me a long time to recognise what and how damaging DV is, i know alot of my school friends who has gone and stayed in DV situations because it is the norm, women left just before they were killed not because they got a slap or two.

We were also told that our parents knew best and wanted the best for us, no they actually didn't but it would have taken to much insight and questioning into their own situation to recognise that.

It was through education and empowerment that this is changing. The quality of childcare is on the rise but that is because it was recognised that there was chioce and the 'cycle' didn't have to continue.

the 'no money' is an issue because it means the rest of us a picking up the bill.

the 'no money' is an issue because it means the rest of us a picking up the bill... and we dont have a choice about that

OP, YANBU. The fact is, there are people who have babies without considering the consequences, or sometimes considering the consequences and not caring a jot about them. That's not specific to people who live on benefits either, there can be any number of situations in which it is less than ideal to be having children, or more children.

I agree.

Yes people have accidents( however once is enough,you learn and don't do it again),yes people have problems and you get screwed up kids from all walks of life.

The above are facts and people can do what they like as far as I'm concerned however I resent being expected to pick up the tab as a tax payer particularly when I didn't have all the children I wanted due to finances.

Basically if you want to have hoards of kids you can't afford to house,feed or parent properly all power to you but don't expect Joe Public to fund your "choices"and"ideals" and not comment.

The vast majority of people wouldn't dream of judging,questioning anybody if they pay for their choices.People do however get a tad peeved when people shouting"don't judge me" then turn round and expect support and funding.

Basically if you expect the tax payer to be involved in the upbringing of your children then expect a few questions and comments on your affairs ie you can't have your cake and eat it.

Belle- if that was directed at me, i don't understand as you have repeated what i have said.

Tethersend- I have gone into a situation recently were the family had nine DC's and they had been 'under the radar' for many years, we had to make it clear that if she got pregnant, we would take the baby, it was the only solution, to make her see that there needed to be a change.

Middle and Upper 'class' people tend to do as much emotional damage but the 'working class' obviously it crosses into physical damage as well, i would like both to stop. I know people who won't have DC's until they have sorted their own problems out first, its easier the more money that you have as you can pay and have time to do that.

That is why i would like to see a better investment in some services, which i feel is the answer, sometimes and will save money in the long run.

A recognition of how much damage emotional neglect does, would also be good.

If this is going to desend into 'how much it costs the tax payer' then i won't support that, as investment in children and families is always money well spent.

What we dont spend on them cost doulble in addiction/prison etc services.

Belle, I don?t think you have to be in a chaotic situation for your contraception to fail. I have good friend who went from 3 DC?s to 4 Dc?s because her contraception failed. No chaos, just a middle class lady with a husband in a stable job, so no judging for her. I guess it was ok for her to fall pregnant accidentally.

If she had been the same woman in a 'chaotic situation' she would have made the same error but deemed to be 'not equipped to make the best decision about her contraception'. Isn?t that a bit patronising? Same mistake, different situation.

Absolutely agree Birds

Personal reponsibility is obviously very important.

So is tackling poverty and social deprivation. That's where money needs to be spent. It would be money very well spent if the government could actually make a difference. Not that this government seems interested in tackling poverty.

Well, babies are rather nice and I imagine that for people who 'keep' having babies in the middle of many problems, a new baby in the midst of feeling like the world is against you, is like a little beacon of light.

I'm probably the opposite - I have overthought a potential DC#2 for nearly four years. When DC1 was a baby, I was made redundant. I spent 18 month s doing poorly paid temporary work. I found a 'proper' job when he was 2.5 and we began to talk about another baby. Then when he was 3, we found out that that DH was going to be made redundant. The process took a year - all baby plans went on hold. DH now has another job, and I am starting to get vibes that I might be made redundant again. I am beginning to think the time will never be right.

The thing is, nobody can plan for the shit that can happen to us at any time. Sometimes people are already pregnant when bad thing happen. I know someone whose DH was dx with terminal cancer when she was three months pregnant. He died two weeks before the baby was born

"Tethersend- I have gone into a situation recently were the family had nine DC's and they had been 'under the radar' for many years, we had to make it clear that if she got pregnant, we would take the baby, it was the only solution, to make her see that there needed to be a change."

Birds, I also know similar families in my line of work. The fact remains that the baby is removed once it's born- the parents have the right to get pregnant.

Us deciding that to have another child is a bad idea is of little consequence- people have the right to have as many children as they want, no matter what happens to them once they are born. Education and counselling can be put in place in order to influence a decision, but the decision to procreate is one afforded to everybody, regardless of circumstances- which is how it should be.

I don't know many people in this situation but I did meet one woman recently struggling badly with no DP and a huge range of professional support to cope with several disabled children and what appeared to be mild MH issues herself. I was sympathetic to both her and her children, but inside I was screaming "Why did you have four children? Wasn't it obvious that you couldn't cope with two?"

Contraceptive failure does happen frequently, and I think that people in extreme circumstances who couldn't choose an abortion should be doubling up on contraception. I also think that their doctors should be advising them of this, and drumming home what "95% effective" etc really means.

Tethersend- i haven't seen anyone arguing for eugenics, posters are just saying that it isn't being judgemental to say to a friend that perhaps getting pregnant wouldn't be for the best.

Once someone is pregnant there is little point, but if a friend who is in dire circumstances says that she might try to concieve then it isn't wrong to ask why.

Some people are taught that having children is just what you do there is no harm in saying that actually, you don't have to and it should be carefully thought about.

I'm obviously expressing myself badly.

Birds I was agreeing with you, I think, so not "aimed" at you.

Phyllis I think there is a big difference between contraceptive failure (which is not what I think this thread is about) and someone being in a situation where they are not able or enabled to make a choice about contraception. My own DD was absolutely not planned but I am fortunate enough that I am not in a chaotic environment and was able to make the decision to keep her despite being single. I am not in receipt of any benefits either just to be clear.

My point was really that not everyone is in a position to make what "society" or someone else might consider to be the best decision. It's not fair to assume that everyone is "together" enough to handle the situations they're in.

I think you are spot, GiddyPickle.

I would have liked to have a big family. As it is, I am doubting our ability to cope practically and finanically with two.

I confess to having found myself thinking that I shouldn't have gone to university, and just got pregnant straight out of school, and then I wouldn't be treading water every day to cope with one child and a demanding job, unable to give up work or afford childcare for two children

spot on

Money aside it does always surprise me that the people least able to cope seem to have the most children, perhaps one leads to the other and they'd have been fantastic parents to one or two or a dog.