Why do people with so many problems still go on to have so many kids?

[sundayrose10]

Often there is a thread on here regarding severe hardship on relationship, crowded unfit home, NO money, kids playing up...and the op will mention she is pregnant with the 3rd, 4th, 5th and so on.

Having more kids on top of major problems = hell

There may not be a right time to have children but there is definitely a better time. And if there is no better time, accept that you don't have to have more kids and be happy with the ones you have. Life is unfair but it's especially unfair to bring more kids into very complicated set ups.

It's a trend I see even in real life. Madness.

'lachesis are you for real? women who can't take hormones should just get sterilised?? so if you don't want a baby at 18, and can't take hormones, you should just get your tubes tied? okay sure.'

Condoms and Persona then, as mentioned. Also copper coil is hormone free and highly effective.

Yes, I'm for real. If you are 18 and can't take hormones you can have a copper coil fitted and insist your partner or partners use condoms every time (if you are in a non-monogamous situation condoms should be de rigeur anyhow).

After I had my first child I had PND. I also had an emergency birth and nearly lost him. I decided then not to have more children. After a year DH said he would like more children. We had another child. I got PND again and she has gone on to have physical problems. Should we have stopped after baby 1, baby 2? We both wanted more children (4 or 5) so we tried for another baby which I lost. We tried again and conceived twins but lost one. I had AND and PND with this baby and stopped increasing our family as my surviving twin and I nearly died at the birth. Maybe you think we should have stopped after number 2? We had no idea what happened was going to happen.

It is our wedding anniversary today and we are proud we are still together and very much in love after lots of difficult times. We claim nothing off anyone and only get baby sitting help from the grandparents. Am I one of your problem families?

So whats the suggestion then? I know all people who earn below say 85k pa should be sterilised? too high, too low, come on set the bar......>

goblinchild are you seriously saying that only people with cash in the bank can raise happy secure children?

tethersend I totaly agree

'goblinchild are you seriously saying that only people with cash in the bank can raise happy secure children?'

'Just a thought. Some of the most messed-up children I've had to deal with have come from high income, materially wealthy and well-educated families who have the most fucked up and chaotic home lives.
Some of the most emotionally stable and loved children have come from economically deprived backgrounds with numerous children.
It's not really about the cash, it's about the healthiness of the relationships between family members.'

Are you actually reading this thread carefully, hugeleyoutnumbered, or are you just hurling random opinions into the ether?

Using that logic hugely, then does that mean that if a person on benefits won the lottery, they would transform into the Best Parent Ever

...goes to enrol on sociology course...

This reminded me of a family at DS' school. There are four children, same dad but mum on her own. She got chatting to my friend at a parenting course at the local surestart and I nearly cried when she told me what they had discussed.

This mum said that the only time in her life she ever felt worth anything, or got any attention she felt was positive was when she had had a baby. Everyone looking at the baby, saying well done, how cute, you must be so proud... The way she described it, this feeling was pretty addictive. She truly felt she had little else in her life to be proud of.

How can anyone in this country not know about contraception fgs? How idiotic must these people be to keep popping out unwanted babies every year and not realise that that is what happens when you have sex without using contraception?

You have different catagories of women (i say women because it is them who get pregnant)

Firstly, there are women who are left over with issues from childhood and are constantly searching for something, some have babies (a family), thinking that is what they want as nature and nurture programs us that way, they don't have the insight to their problems or how to help themselves.

Then there are the women who are 'mismanaging' everything, including contraception.

Women under stress and accidents do happen.

Some don't think to deeply about anything, have any insight into anything, including the quality of care that they are giving any aspect of their lives.

For others their children are the only thing that is worthwhile about them and that they have (in their opinion, not mine).

Of course there are the women with, MH, LD and addiction problems, lack of self esteem, etc.

Then there is a lack of 'intelligence', including emotional and common sense, for want of a better word.

I think that there are very few who are happy to make their lives and their childrens lives unhappy, on purpose.

OP- i agree that the excuse making should stop towards some, suggesting contraception isn't being judgemental in the extreme cases that you have mentioned, it is being sensible.

I think that it is similar to DV, when you stop making excuses why people stay (or continue with behaviour) and take a empowering approach, it is the only way to help.

I'm not really sure why this has descended into a "so are you saying poor people shouldn't have children?" slanging match!

The OP started a valid discussion.

Some people when they have a chaotic life step up the contraception and don't have any more until things are more stable. Therefore, whilst their lives are chaotic, they are not.

Some people have chaotic lives and are also more chaotic in themselves.

The sad story MissBetsy tells is not uncommon. It's often the only time some women are spoken to with any respect and feel that they have anything positive to contribute to society.

And some people just have unprotected sex.

Nothing at all about money.

If this thread is in response to mine about moving into 'temporary' council provided accommodation as we were homeless with 3 DCs and I was also pregnant, I will explain how this situation came about.

I was made redundant in 2009 (before that joint household income of £75k, lots of childcare to pay though so not well off but stable) and only managed to get short term temporary work until I fell pregnant (had to have Mirena coil taken out due to problems with it) unexpectedly. It was just the bloody once that we took a risk (no condoms). I suffered very, very badly with sickness,dizziness and tiredness in the early months so could not work and could not get any sick pay, by the time I felt better, I was showing and was not offered any further temp work. DH's income was £30k but we had a large mortgage on a £250k house (average 3 bed SE) so started falling behind with bills. We decided we would manage until I could work again. DH was then made redundant when I was 8 weeks pregnant so we were buggered. He had been in the job for less than 18 months so got vitually nothing in severence. We were already a month behind with the mortgage as we had to pay for repairs for the car so DH could get to work (absolute joke). 4 months down the line, we decided to hand the house back to the mortgage company as we had tried to sell but were in negative equity anyway. I would not wish this experience on my worst enemy.

So we were homeless, 3 DCs and me 6 months pregnant but DH has since found another job and we are very happily married (even closer since we went through all this). The DC are OK and although we have had to move out of the area where their school is, they remain at the same schools and don't seem to have suffered much. Is that OK with you? Should I have aborted DC4 (crawling in front of me now with his blond curls and massive smile) when DH lost his job to make stuck up bastards like you feel better?

BTW WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU TO JUDGE ANYONE? There but for the grace of god is what I always say.

As has been said, this situation will never change unless the causes leading to it (and the causes are many, as Birdsgottafly has so clearly outlined) are addressed. I don't believe they ever will be addressed and, in some cases, perhaps cannot be.

So, YANBU to think about this the way that you do but YABU to believe that everyone has the ability to make the "best" choices in the situation.

Notpaying I have no idea whether this thread is a response to yours because I haven't read it.

It sounds like you've had a really shit and stressful time and I'm really pleased to hear that things are improving.

I doubt that people in your position are being judged, although I know (from experience) that when you are in a shit position it's easy to feel that you are.

For my part, I do have an opinion on people who continue to have children when they have "so many problems" (as the OP said) because I've seen what it does to the children.

Let's take finances out of the equation shall we?

I can understand completely how people whose lives are imploding will take risks with contraception. Let's take me as an example.

When dd1 was born, I was struggling badly with the death of my Mum which had happened 4 years earlier - I could not have predicted how catastrophicially being a Mum myself would effect the grieving process I thought I had come through by then. Add to that, a DH who was very stressed in his own business and who has depressive tendencies of his own. It was a desperately hard 18 months or so. We loved each other but just couldn't communicate - and that included sex which had always been a saviour in hard times before that. So, one night, when I needed affection and made overtures which he responded to enthusiastically, is it any wonder I threw caution to the wind and didn't ruin the 'moment' by getting out of bed for condoms? Result - dd2. He left me when I was 5 mo pg.

As it goes, we got back together v quickly and we are very happy and settled now - 7 years on. And dd2 is a delight. But at the time, I had no idea what the future held and saw a future of single parenthood looming.

So you don't have to be poor, or thick to take risks with contraception. And those risks can be absolutely worth it. They certainly were for me.

NotPaying- your situation isn't what the OP is talking about, or rather shouldn't be, none of us know what is around the corner.

I have seen people's lives fall apart very quickly through illness.

To explain, SS walk into a 'neglectful' situation but it is worstening, SS put conditions on the parents, we have had a thread about alcoholic parents, for example, the conditions are quite valid. These conditions are placed to try to get the parents to see that at present they are not making the right choices and until they do so, life will not improve for anyone and sometimes it has to be made clear that they would not be allowed to take a new born home.

In a way it is a judgement, but in the best interests of everyone, the situation cannot be allowed to continue or get worse, having a new born can cause deterioration, as well as danger to baby.

As long as alongside you want to improve their lives and not heap guilt/shame on the family which will never make a positive outcome, then sometimes you do have to look at it and goal set from an outside perspective.

Some people don't have anyone to give them common sense advice or who wants them to be happy, they have family who stand back enable them so they set them up to 'fail' and can say 'told you that you wouldn't amount to anything'.

YABVU.

Contraception is a personal choice; and in some cases not without risks. Having a child is a personal choice. It is their body. Just because our society dictates that we should put materialist things and work before all else doesn't mean that choice should not stand.

You can question if somebody should have so many kids based on your own ideals for your life BUT you should not expect everyone else to do the same as you.

But Birds, for SS to make that judgement at the point of a child exisiting is wholly different to that judgement being made at the point of conception, or even before that. Besides, this thread talks about having more children- so working on the assumption that parents are already 'good enough' to have one or two children.

'Chaotic lives' are subjective.

The bottom line is, everybody can reproduce. This is how it should be, as the consequences of anything else are too abhorrent to consider.

I really hope I'm misunderstanding this thread, because it's leaving a nasty taste...

I think some people with problems have children because they think it will improve their own lives - and in some cases it does.

Some people who are on the verge of breaking up seem to think that having a child will bring them closer or seal their relationship. IMO it is unfair on the children to be brought in to such situations.

This has got nothing to do with materialism/benefits/work/foreign holidays/latest gadgets. It is not unreasonable to think that it is a bad idea to have more children than you can provide for emotionally and physically. The fact that so many people are so inbedded in the mentality of "you go girl, you want it, that's OK, you have it and bugger the consequences to you and everyone else" which pervades society is frankly bloody depressing.

to answer the OP's question: because they put their own wants/needs above their existing kids/future kids wants needs. even if you can currently afford a number of kids, the greater the number you have, the more vulnerable you are to a change in your circumstances.

Is it possible that people actually choose to have large families. My DD and her DF have 5. Eldest just 8 and the youngest 4 month.

Both parents are University educated. Both very placid people who absolutely adore all their children.

We were at a family Baptism a few weeks ago and my Nephew asked them if they had tracking devices on all of the DC.

The older 4 have swimming lessons at the same time on Saturdays so Dad can go with them. It's amazing the amount of people who come up to talk to them and tell them how wonderful the DC are.

They have "movie nights" on the weekend with everyone taking turns to choose the movie. Sometimes there are a few arguements as to who is going to make the popcorn.

They all have quality time with Mum and Dad on their own.

DD still carries the baby around in a "pouch" and his little face lies on her chest and he looks so contented.

We have lunch together at least once a week and the baby usually sleeps right through lunch and the two little girls sit at the table and eat their lunch. (They are just 2 and 3.5).

Sorry, I could just go on and on but I won't bore you any longer.

You should not have to explain yourself ImNotPaying....looking for the best in people I would imagine this thread was written coincidentally? Redundancy during pregnancy is just hideous, people don?t always do the maths they see ?unemployed with pregnant partner?.

The thing is I know lots of people who have had surprise pregnancies, some people I know passed them of as ?planned? at the time, but not until a decade or more has passed have admitted that they had been caught out at the time.

A few friends have been caught out by contraception failing, methods that had previously worked for years, 10 years in one friends case.

For a few people it made life really tough and if MN had been invented they would probably have been typing away looking for support.

As it happens, most of the people have worked through the tough times and life is ok now, the ?accidental conceptions? have grown up to have great lives (ooooh, and are working hard and paying Tax too, just to help balance the maths).