Why do people with so many problems still go on to have so many kids?

[sundayrose10]

Often there is a thread on here regarding severe hardship on relationship, crowded unfit home, NO money, kids playing up...and the op will mention she is pregnant with the 3rd, 4th, 5th and so on.

Having more kids on top of major problems = hell

There may not be a right time to have children but there is definitely a better time. And if there is no better time, accept that you don't have to have more kids and be happy with the ones you have. Life is unfair but it's especially unfair to bring more kids into very complicated set ups.

It's a trend I see even in real life. Madness.

You only have to read the Relationships threads for a short time to realise that some women have babies with the most unsuitable partners because being in that relationship messes with their heads to the point where they can't see what's staring any outsider in the face. These women in dv situations don't come across as feckless or entitled people- yet they are making choices that seem totally irrational, even irresponsible, to anybody from outside. Their expectations of what family life should look like are totally skewed.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that growing up in a deprived environment or in a dysfunctional family can mess with your head in similar ways and create skewed expectations. Very frustrating of course for those of us who see it from the outside

I'm going to leave this thread also (like anyone will notice ) but before I do, could I suggest an alternative way of looking at the benefits "issue"? For every family taking advantage of the State, I imagine there are tens if not hundreds of other families who are actually in need and who are striving to get themselves into a better situation. Why not regard those taking advantage as the collateral damage in a situation where we necessarily have a "one size fits all" approach to state benefit?

If the main financial contributor to any of our households lost their job or became seriously ill, I imagine we'd all be grateful for the benefits we'd be able to claim.

And, for what it's worth, not everyone who "kicks off" about the cuts is in receipt of benefits. It's called compassion.

For some, having a baby and raising little ones is the only thing they think they have to be proud of. I think everyone wants to feel like they've done something in the world, and have others recognise it, and for some women and couples - even those with good jobs - they may get more compliments and positive talk and recognition by having a baby than they do anything else. Some see having children as a way of making a difference in the world, because their world is such chaos they pin all their hopes on having children that will get out and really do something special that they can be proud of and feel part of. Even if they know that few get out of the cycle, they hope their kids will be the ones to do something great because they can't see that for themselves. It's a societal issue that is not easy to fix and cannot be completely blamed on a 'sense of entitlement'.

I'm relieved to read this thread, because I'm in agreement with the OP, and I'm pleased that the debate here has for the most part remained fairly even and that it hasn't descended into chaos.

I have done a lot of thinking WRT a third child, and dh and I have taken the heartbreaking decision not to. For now at least. Even though I'd like three children, and we could provide reasonably well for them all, (our house is big enough but we'd have to make sacrifices), I just don't think I could provide emotionally for three. I've made a practical decision, but am amazed at how few people have actually told me to think with my head - I've had countless people say, "ooo you'll never regret a third, you should just go for it." Actually I would have liked some people to say, "If you're unsure you shouldn't be doing it at all". Only one of my friends has said, "Don't do it... three children have pushed dh and I over the edge". (They are now on the verge of divorce )

Belle
If the main financial contributor to any of our households lost their job or became seriously ill, I imagine we'd all be grateful for the benefits we'd be able to claim.

Well obviously.
One minute I was playing happy families with a career and a baby and a husband.
Next minute I was a single mum on benefits and a cancer patient.

Nobody knows what life is about to throw at them and it is essential to have a safety net for our society - but what I didn't do is have another child to compund an already shitty situation. Which is what the OP was on about.

My neighbour has 5 kids by 3 different men - she does cleaning and caring and works her arse off to keep her kids in what they need.
It is HER taxes that prop up the lazy little mares who select "breeding on benefits" as a lifestyle choice.

Tricky. I have a relative who has a large family, not maternal, doesn't attend parents evenings, doesn't value education at all, children living in a chaotic environment and yet she wants more children. Why? Because she views children as an entitlement, has never worked so only has experience of being a mum, would never earn enough for work to be worthwhile and by having child after child she is buying time until she has to think about work. Her eldest daughter is due to take GCSE's this summer and is trying for a baby because work is "boring" and she wants her own place.

What is the answer? I have no idea.

Giddy- childhood poverty is getting better but part of the 'problem' is that the standard of living is rising alongside so the 'childhood poverty' criteria is getting more and more.

Irrisponsible parenting, in essence, makes up a very small part of the problem.

There is more unclaimed benefits than fraud and the benefit fraud bill is smaller than unpaid tax.

Sorry i don't spot my spelling mistakes before i press 'post'.

Oh yes unpaid tax is a huge problem. I have a friend who is wealthy and always harping on about benefit claimants, saying that her taxes fund feckless families on benefits. She is a full time mum so doesn't actually pay any taxes and openly admits that her husband has rather inventive methods of tax avoidance. I think what they are doing is worse as they have had a good education and should know better. It is pure and simple greed.

great...another thread like this, criticising large families, single parents and benefit claimants all in one.......

getting sick and tried of this and think the thread is probably something to do with the one I posted the other day.

I dunno, Kkate.

Would you be having that many kids if you had to feed'em yourself?

And Kate, I'd say your thread highlights beautifully pretty much everything that is wrong with the system and why so many of us a delighted the Tories are back in.

to be honest, if someone had say 4 dogs they couldnt control, couldnt cope with and couldnt afford, who in their right minds would say oooh lovely, when they announce they are getting more

YABU. We all hope things will be at least as good or better in the future, but no-one can guarantee their own future circumstances, even those who think they can.

YANBU at all. I read of a family of 13 kids (mum pg with 14) and both were claiming benefits and not working, so that taxpayer has to support them. That is not right, if you cannot afford to keep that many children you should not be having them or take more permanent measures. Yes I understand that there will be an 'accident' then you be sensible and get yourself sterilised if you cannot afford anymore.

"Oh yes unpaid tax is a huge problem. I have a friend who is wealthy and always harping on about benefit claimants, saying that her taxes fund feckless families on benefits. She is a full time mum so doesn't actually pay any taxes and openly admits that her husband has rather inventive methods of tax avoidance. I think what they are doing is worse as they have had a good education and should know better. It is pure and simple greed."

Why "should they know better"? What good does subsidising a massive underclass do anyone? Maybe the tax avoiders are the smart ones, putting money in escrow to secure their own families future, instead of funding people to have more kids they can't afford to raise properly?

I find myself agreeing with you again The Falcon.

The only way I can see benefit claimants being relevant here is if parents are claiming benefits already and choose to have more children, despite not being able to support the ones they already have themselves.

That neither applies to all benefits claimants, nor means that all parents who claim benefits should be daemonised.

But there really is no denying that amongst irresponsible parenting, there are certainly those who are financially irresponsible and some of those are going to be claiming benefits.

I know a bloke/cousin/ woman up the road blah blah fucking blah

The saddest thing is that children born into poverty/chaos/DV/deprivation etc gave damaged lives. They often grow up to be damaged adults who damage their own children. Why do some people think they have a right to bring children into their fucked up world?

Any system that actively encourages people in these situations through a generous benefits system to have yet more poor little kids is morally culpable.

Well everybody is entitled to their opinion, and yes there are families out there who do have copious amounts of children and they are not able to support them themselves. We want two as we know that all we are able to realistically afford and cope with.

I agree with the first part of your post, RH - damaged parents cause damaged children, so it goes on.

But benefits have nothing to do with it. People who were brought up with confused values, odd beliefs and weak boundaries can't be expected to make rational decisions or have emotional & moral clarity. They don't even rationally choose a life on benefits; it's not a rational choice in itself.

So, when it comes to it, you're criticising people with problems for having problems.

you're criticising people with problems for having problems

yes.... when they start causing problems for other people - mainly their own children

YANBU, sundayrose, but to pick up on what MissBetsyTrotwood said further up the thread about the woman who never had any attention or kindness in her life other than when she had her babies, often it's the very people who are most in crisis and have the most messed up lives who will be the ones making the apparently unreasonable decision to keep on having children because it's all they have. It seems insane to everyone else but it probably makes sense to them.

People who are in stable situations, capable of thinking rationally and well supported by a good network of friends and family will be in a frame of mind to make rational decisions. People who are depressed or have other mental health issues or are unsupported or under extreme stress will often not be able to make good choices. That's why society ends up with so many neglected children. It's also not 'judgey' to wonder about this. I think it's something that a lot of people find puzzling and irrational in others e.g. seeing a woman in a relationship with a deadbeat loser having her 3rd or 4th child with him or a teenage girl who is homeless or in foster care getting pregnant at 16, just complicating her already difficult life further.

I do wonder myself what drives people to be so irrational in choosing* to have children in terrible situations but I think a lot of it boils down to poor self esteem and some psychological hang-up about being a mother. A lot of people who have nothing else in their lives see having children as one of thew few things they can control and have value or respect from. And that's certainly not a psychological problem that is confined to the social margins either!

*Disclaimer: yes, contraceptive failures can happen and have happened to friends of mine but it's not THAT common...