To think this situation in East Africa could be less serious than it is if there was more information about contraception.

[JazzieJeff]

Ive been thinking this over for some time, and I don't want to appear prejudiced, but I don't think I am being. Because after all, so many people say of people who are struggling to live on low wages/benefits in this country 'why are they continuing to have children?'. So really, my point is the same, but in East Africa, people are bringing children into a world where there is a bloody good chance they will starve or die a horrible death from dirty water.

I dont know whether it's a lack of education, or the spread of the Catholic faith in the developing world. However, I'm not sure if either of these validates people continuing to bring children into such a dire situation. I can honestly say that if I was in East Africa, and that was happening to me and I didn't have access to contraception that I would abstain. I really would. I could not bear to allow any child of mine to suffer. Secondly, if it really is the Catholic faith which prevents so many people from using contraception (as is the case in many developing countries), why isn't there more pressure from governments and charities on the Vatican to start putting money up to start paying for all these children? It's not like they're short of cash; how about using some of those funds they use to put gold leaf on the walls to start putting food in children's mouths. Children, that ultimately, they are responsible for. Because this is getting ridiculous. This has happened twice (that I know of in this country) in my lifetime. Either way, AIBU to think that there needs to be a better solution to birth control in these places, be it contraception or abstinence?

It's not that they don't know better - it's that she will need those children to survive in her own old age. Those children, if she can get them to survive, are her safety net in old age. Old women without children are likely to be left to die.

It's not that they don't know better - it's that live in a country, or just in a remote enough region of a country, where they do not have the 'right to choose' on any sexual matters (it wasn't that long ago that rape in marriage was legal here). How do you expect them to be able to see themselves as having the right to choose contraception or that their contraception will not be tampered with (a very common form of abuse in the UK)?

It's not that they don't know better - it's that they spend hours of each day trying to get water and farming. They may be days away from health care. They have other things on their minds like surviving to waste time and/or money on going to a health clinic unless absolutely needed.

It's not that they don't know better - their lives just present them with very different choices than you have in front of you and to say you 'know' what you would do in that situation, and that it would so much better than them, is a patronising slap to those women who deal with things we cannot even imagine here in the UK.

No, I didn't say it'd stop all those issues did I? No. I said they have a right to a basic education, and it might help them. Might. At least they'd know, at least they might have a choice.

Does no one think they have this right? Or do you just want to give bread and water and bugger off back to your middle class existence as quickly as you possibly can?

20 minutes to explain and implement sexual rights, property rights and state pensions for women in East Africa?

I'm bringing a chair and a camera.

Are you kidding OP? Are you actually reading anyone's replies?

Your such a good person OP, no one else cares about "these people" like you do

Thats it Jazzie. I don't think people in Africa have a right to an education. That's what I think. I am part of a group that is trying very hard to stop education in Africa as it is the last thing they need. I do think it is ok to drop of some san pellegrino and brioche but no more. Thats plenty of help.

You're (even)

not my point is, as I've said over and over, we can't just chuck food aid at them and expect it all to be alright again. They need help to build an infrastructure, however basic because there is no government control. I'm not saying contraception is all of a sudden going to solve it. IM NOT. Just want to make that one clear.

When the immediate crisis is over, there needs to be more of a concentrated effort to help stop this happening again. Because it keeps happening. Part of that help should surely include education and contraception.

Or shall we keep them ignorant, and oppressed? Yeah. Let's just do that eh? Let's not even try. Because God forbid they actually succeed

What is this? OP doing Geography 101?

So what shall we do then? Yeah cat, let's give them bread and water, walk away and watch this all happen again in ten years. I just LOVE a bit of human suffering. Let's not help them take control. Let's keep them at the mercy of the western world.

You are talking as if there are women there walking past a well stocked Boots the Chemist chock full of free condoms / pills / diaphragms etc and thinking "Naah, I won't bother"

And there are already organisations working to share information and support and facilitate greater access to all sorts of healthcare, including birth control. DO you honestly think you are the first person to have thought that more information would be useful? But education is only part of it - there are so many other issues at play.

So no one thinks the people deserve education and help to take control of their destiny in the most basic sense? REALLY?

And I apologise to anyone who found my definition 'these people'. I will henceforth refer to them as the group of people currently affected by the humanitarian crisis in Eastern Africa.

No pumkpin I don't think that. I do think they have a right to help if they want it though. I agree there are more pressing issues, but I also think that the recovery package MUST include more than what is being currently dished out.

No. If we give them the RECIPIE for some nice bread (wholemeal though, you know for health) then I think they wil be fine and it wont happen again in 10 years. Or ever. Thats what I think. I think they don't have the right to an education or choices. I think we should "throw" bread and water at them and walk away and I think they should be kept at the merct of the Western World.

Thats what people on here are saying. Apparantly.....

Jazzie - you sound like this has all come to you suddenly and like most people who have 'seen the light' or watched a documentary, you sound a bit evangelical and as though you are the only person to 'understand' and see what needs to be done. What makes you think the rest of us don't see this or that we 'Or do you just want to give bread and water and bugger off back to your middle class existence as quickly as you possibly can?'

I just can't take anyone seriously who says ' well if it was me I'd just abstain - simples'.

And no, I don't think I'm the first person. But all I see is a forum full of people saying the group of people currently involved in the humanitarian crisis in Eastern Africa are not entitled to any sort of aftercare package, including more education and contraception to enable them to make basic choices.

What happens in a few months, or years when this is out of the public eye?

A forum full of people? Who has said they don't deserve aid?

and anyway, if we improved the plight of these people you wouldn't be able to buy 2 quid T-shirts in Primark or enjoy lovely all inclusive luxury hotels staffed by trillians of locals at our beck and call.

I'm not sure anyone has ever said that Jazzie. Perhaps you have had too much sun?

it's not just about education, it's about culture and expectation.

I grew up in southern Africa, not east Africa granted but Africa none the less, where many of the tribal and cultural norms are the same.

Firstly, part of being either a man or a woman in Africa is about fertility. A man has to be seen to be able to father many children, and as such a woman needs to be seen to bear many children in order to prove that her man is fertile. It really is that basic - have had this conversation with people out there.

Secondly, it's a bit like going back to the basics of nature - in nature animals have many young because they know that few will survive. In Africa many living conditions are basic and the inphant mortality rate is extremely high, and as a result many children are needed in order to ensure survival of the population.

And lastly, there is a huge belief that introduction of contraception is the white man's ploy to stop the black man from breeding. When I lived in Namibia the company my parents worked for gave away free condoms in order to try to help combat the spread of HIV/aids. The Africans refused to use them because they genuinely believe that condoms are there to stop them from reproducing.

So unless you think you are able to change entire cultures, and in all honesty what gives us the right to think we should be able to do that? Education and provision of contraception would have no impact.

When women are better educated, have something approaching equality, can be financially independent and when their dcs are likely to survive to adulthood then the birthrate will come down, like it did in Europe. We are really only talking about a fertility rate of about 6ish live births per woman so its not like women are having a child a year between puberty and menopause. Overbreeding women is not the root of the problem.

I SAID THAT IF I WAS IN THAT SITUATION, ME JAZZIEJEFF I WOULD CHOOSE TO ABSTAIN BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE MY CHOICE. NOT THAT THAT IS THE SOLUTION TO THIS. OFFERING A CHOICE IS.

Never have I suggested that this is a solution. I have suggested that some sort of after care help, which could include contraception, could be a part of a solution. No one has been able to offer me a calm, measured response as to why they don't deserve additional aid boosts (as part of a programme which wasnt planned out in the 1980's).

I care. I want to help, and i want to know what can be done after the crisis to help people live again.And yet so far I have been called ignorant, stupid, ridiculous, lazy, opinionated and a Nazi.

I also called you arrogant

When in Africa, an elder once told me that,
"when you argue with a fool, you are a fool too".

Well OP I'm not a fool and will CERTAINLY NOT argue with a FOOL

For those who are trying to educate OP, please give it a rest . OP is not stupid she's a deranged attention seeker.

Overbreeding women? Any people are telling me I have a terrible turn of phrase?

snicker my point is, we're jumping in too late. Constantly, and it's isn't fair. We are selling the people currently affected by the humanitarian crisis in Eastern Africa short by not helping them in all areas.